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Forums > C64 Pixeling > Does Interlace really suck ?
2006-05-03 18:32
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029
Does Interlace really suck ?

Back in 96 IFLI was all the hype, nobody really cared about the flickering if the picture was pixeled with a good technique.

Back in 96 Multicolor sized pixels were considered nice and not blocky, hires wasnt so overhyped.

and I think the shifting viewpoint to a great extent boils down to the wide used emulators. Everyone uses emulators today, and yes, interlace looks like shit in them, and multicolor pixels looks like huge square blocks in them.

Everyone should take some time and check the best laced pictures on a real thing with a real TV, and check multicolor / hires difference. I remember back in the time thinking that hires is actually to HIGH resolution, as a normal TV can hardly display such a pixels.

The lesson is: Interlace is only a flickering nightmare if not watched on TV, and multicolor pix has ugly big pixels only if not watched on a TV.
 
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2006-05-06 12:59
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
Quote:

1. The well proven 'Deekay-method of witch-hunting'.
- "Boooh! It's sooo easy to pixel in IFLI, and you probably wire too, because it's IFLI. And it flickers. FLI+Flickering+Hires is evil. XYZFLI+flickering+Hires and everything else isn't. Period."

These kind of reactions prove that they most likely don't have the fucking clue, never tried to pixel anything in IFLI or just trying to express their personal failure in pixelling IFLI.


Dude, what's your problem? Did i ever accuse you of wiring your stuff?
If you can't cope with the reality that IFLI is _the most perfect_ mode if you want to wire your stuff that's your problem, but don't give me that crybaby-bullshit, especially since i always told you how much i liked your work and never ever even _hinted_ you would just wire your stuff!
But still: i prefer your non-interlaced work to your interlaced work.

I HAVE worked IFLI, and i always hated it. I know all the tricks to reduce flickering, but the result will ALWAYS be a murky picture without details and flickering, because there's just no way you can completely get rid of it. For starters $d016 flickering will ALWAYS be there, you can not make a steady pixel in IFLI! black hires-outlines (cartoon-style)? Forget it in IFLI, will always flicker like hell!
I know some people prefer to pixel their stuff on the Amiga (like Cyclone), and for them IFLI is also the way to go. Well, too bad the same works for Photoshop-converted pictures, too.. But don't blame ME for that!

I know you all hate XYZFLI because it's tough to pixel in. But the fact remains: With UIFLI and SHIF _you_ choose just how much the picture flickers, because it already IS hires and there's no need to fake it via $d016! If you only want some extremely subtle flicker in some color-fades, do it! If you don't want any flicker at all, just use UFLI and SHF!

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "Bigscreen-effect": On a beamer you just can not see any flicker, which gives an unfair advantage in Compos, because even the most horrible flickering pictures (think: alternating vertical columns of black/white) look just fine on the bigscreen!
It's not only unfair towards people working in non-interlaced modes, it's also unfair towards the people that make GOOD laced pics without much flickering! And there _are_ alot of good IFLI-pictures, like yours f.ex.!...

Besides: I think using non-blended screenshots for IFLI-pictures is misleading in the highest degree. It's unfair towards people like TCH that actually work in real hires and UFLI because the screenshots look the same, but the IFLIs are ofcourse much more colorful!
You can't even see how much it flickers using a blended screenshot already, so don't try to also fake murky details that just aren't there when viewing the picture on a real c64 - OR an emulator!
It does not matter how the picture looks like when you work on it in zoom-mode or on Amiga, that's not what is actually seen on the screen when displaying the picture! Where's the checkerboard pattern gone? Oh, right, we now have alternating flicker-lines for that! Hello?
2006-05-06 13:12
drake
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207
and then we all come to the point that this all is a matter of taste. like deekay already said: on the bigscreen you don't see any flickering.
still, i love those nice pictures painted in multi-color.
2006-05-06 16:43
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576
Quote: and then we all come to the point that this all is a matter of taste. like deekay already said: on the bigscreen you don't see any flickering.
still, i love those nice pictures painted in multi-color.


(Edit: I didn't wanted to quote Drake, sorry)

Quote:
Dude, what's your problem? Did i ever accuse you of wiring your stuff?


No, I never said you accused me of anything. On the other hand, your anti-IFLI manifestos were always tickling (not just) my balls, and there were more than enough of them during the years. No offence, but an "IFLI is for weenies" statement is what I'd expect from a person who probably knows nothing (or at least not too much) about weeks or months of painting and optimizing flickering to the bone in the world's most fucked up, buggy pixel editors.

Whilst we're at accusations, what about you being one of the most known medium of addressing other graphicians for wiring (sometimes even without a single clue)? Does that ring a bell?

Quote:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "Bigscreen-effect": On a beamer you just can not see any flicker, which gives an unfair advantage in Compos, because even the most horrible flickering pictures (think: alternating vertical columns of black/white) look just fine on the bigscreen! It's not only unfair towards people working in non- interlaced modes, it's also unfair towards the people that make GOOD laced pics without much flickering!


No one is forced to pixel non-flickering or less-flickering pictures for compos. Furthermore, not a single person is forced to compete on parties at all if he/she can't live with the rules that are set. What unfairness you're talking about? It was unfair to wire for compos, it really was. But being unfair for pixelling too flickery images? Wow. And you ask about my problems when I mention witch hunting?

And once when we get rid of flickering from the compos, next will be to get rid of hi-res images because they're unfair to compete with low-res images. That would be a real step forward, at least according to your logic.

Quote:
Besides: I think using non-blended screenshots for IFLI-pictures is misleading in the highest degree.


Misleading to whom, exactly? For Johnny Clueless who doesn't know what "Type: C64 Graphics (Interlaced FLI)" means?

Quote:
It's unfair towards people like TCH that actually work in real hires and UFLI because the screenshots look the same,


Gosh, amazing. Do you watch gif/png screenshots or native graphics formats on your C64? You judge about a picture by the screens displayed on your pc or do you transfer them to the real deal to take a peak?

Quote:
but the IFLIs are ofcourse much more colorful!


Um, so blended IFLI screenshots are ofcourse less colorful, oh I see! Well, for your information, the IFLI images look much more colorful on the C64 as well.

Quote:
You can't even see how much it flickers using a blended screenshot already, so don't try to also fake murky details that just aren't there when viewing the picture on a real c64 - OR an emulator!
It does not matter how the picture looks like when you work on it in zoom-mode or on Amiga, that's not what is actually seen on the screen when displaying the picture! Where's the checkerboard pattern gone? Oh, right, we now have alternating flicker-lines for that! Hello?


Right, and you see the exact C64 UFLI picture or dithering as on the gif/png screenshot... Give me a break, please!
A person who judges a picture by the screenshot or by seeing it in the emu only, should do his homework, really. It's not the way to do. But wait a minute, why I'm telling this to _you_? Nevertheless, this topic has nothing to do with IFLI screenshots.

For everyone who gets all this "IFLI sucks/doesn't sucks" thing too serious: you shouldn't. Who cares? If you like it, good, a graphician's fun turned into a pleasure of yours. If you don't like it, that's fine too. Noone got hurt. So what's the big deal?
2006-05-06 17:27
Twoflower

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434
My favourite interlaced picture (by Electric) was made in 3 colors+background. There is a certain aesthetics in interlace, no matter if it sucks or not. I'm surprised that not more people are trying to achieve really hard flickering. Or just subtle uses of IFLI, with some areas containing flickering and some not. Hires interlace between close colors can be really subtle at times, btw.
2006-05-06 17:43
Graham
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990
Quote:
And once when we get rid of flickering from the compos, next will be to get rid of hi-res images because they're unfair to compete with low-res images.

- You do see the difference between hires and lores on the bigscreen.

- You do NOT see the difference between UFLI and IFLI, because the beamers remove the flickering from the IFLI. This is indeed kinda unfair, since people will not see that a picture is interlaced.

Quote:
Um, so blended IFLI screenshots are ofcourse less colorful, oh I see! Well, for your information, the IFLI images look much more colorful on the C64 as well.

Blended screenshots are reflecting what you see on a real C64 most accurate, while 320x200 shots do not reflect it. That was the point-
2006-05-06 17:47
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
Quote:

No, I never said you accused me of anything.


Then why do you most certainly word your postings like i did?

Quote:

On the other hand, your anti-IFLI manifestos were always tickling (not just) my balls, and there were more than enough of them during the years.


Like which? From what i remember i wrote two columns about the subject. Maybe you should re-read them, cause i have the impression there's some serious overblowing going on...

Quote:

No offence, but an "IFLI is for weenies" statement is what I'd expect from a person who probably knows nothing (or at least not too much) about weeks or months of painting and optimizing flickering to the bone in the world's most fucked up, buggy pixel editors.


Yeah, right, like i've never worked in Fun/Gunpaint.. Besides: If YOU choose to pixel your stuff on c64 in these editors and others do great pictures too in IFLI WITHOUT these buggy editors on Amiga or in Photoshop, wouldn't you say your unneccessary labor is your very own choice?

Quote:

Whilst we're at accusations, what about you being one of the most known medium of addressing other graphicians for wiring (sometimes even without a single clue)? Does that ring a bell?


Oh my, here we go again, I see you've been talking to some people...

Actually no. From what i remember i did write that with some people i wanted to see some workstages or see them working. If that's the same as accusing somebody, then that's your problem. Especially since you never were one of them.
In other communities it's totally normal to have technical means of verification, just think of the cheaters in the gaming community and stuff like punkbuster. Or why would you think handing in workstages is a requirement these days for pixel competitions? Do the organizers accuse EVERYONE taking part in the competition of wiring? Applying your logic "asking for proof" = accusation it most certainly would be... Witchhunters, every single one of them! ;-)

Point in case: I can do an IFLI-picture in 2 hours in Photoshop plus some fixing on c64 afterwards and win a Compo with it (one that doesn't require workstages that is!). So far, this can only be done in IFLI. And you ask me why I'm suspicious of IFLI-pictures?

Quote:

No one is forced to pixel non-flickering or less-flickering pictures for compos. Furthermore, not a single person is forced to compete on parties at all if he/she can't live with the rules that are set. What unfairness you're talking about? It was unfair to wire for compos, it really was. But being unfair for pixelling too flickery images? Wow. And you ask about my problems when I mention witch hunting?


If it looks shit on a real c64 and looks great on Bigscreen, it's unfair towards others whose pictures also look great on a real c64. Period. No witches were killed in the writing of this posting!

Quote:

And once when we get rid of flickering from the compos, next will be to get rid of hi-res images because they're unfair to compete with low-res images. That would be a real step forward, at least according to your logic.


That's not "my logic", that's bullshit. Hires and Lowres can both look great on c64, and there's NO difference in both between Bigscreen and real c64.
With anything Interlace, there damn well is!

Quote:

Misleading to whom, exactly? For Johnny Clueless who doesn't know what "Type: C64 Graphics (Interlaced FLI)" means?


Well, I don't even know HOW you add the information about the GFX-mode used to a CSDB entry. I see you do (however this works!), but you're about the only person that does. Usually it just says "C64 Graphics" and that's it! Go check for yourself!

Misleading for someone who's looking for new UFLI pictures f.ex. (=me), now that TCH has given new life to the format! ;-)

Quote:

Gosh, amazing. Do you watch gif/png screenshots or native graphics formats on your C64? You judge about a picture by the screens displayed on your pc or do you transfer them to the real deal to take a peak?


I do transfer them, and i'm always disappointed when i see some ugly flicker-mess instead of the nice screenshot i saw before. Blending is already nullifying one aspect of IFLI, the flickering, simply because browsers can't display a proper 25Hz-Interlace. Don't make the screenshots lie on the other issue IFLI has inherently: Lack of detail! Because IFLI just doesn't have that, don't pretend it does through using non-blended "screenshots"!

If it CAN NOT ever be displayed like that on a real c64 (and even in an Emulator, because they only offer blending!) it is simply WRONG to call this a "screenshot"!

Quote:

Um, so blended IFLI screenshots are ofcourse less colorful, oh I see!


Bullshit reasoning. I was comparing to UFLI. _Only_ rastered IFLI-"Screenshots" compare 1:1 to UFLI, because they suggest it's actually Hires! But it's not, it's FAKE Hires! So just don't pretend it's Hires because that's what the editor seemingly displays, is that too much to ask for?...

Quote:

Well, for your information, the IFLI images look much more colorful on the C64 as well.


Yeah, but they also look shitloads more blurry. BECAUSE THEY AREN'T HIRES!

Quote:

Right, and you see the exact C64 UFLI picture or dithering as on the gif/png screenshot... Give me a break, please!


I don't, but it comes sufficiently close, especially using PAL-Emulation.
This is _not_ true for rastered IFLI-Picture-Screenshots! They flicker (which cannot be displayed in GIF/PNG) _and_ they are murky because of $d016 (which CAN be displayed in GIF/PNG using blending!)

Quote:

A person who judges a picture by the screenshot or by seeing it in the emu only, should do his homework, really. It's not the way to do. But wait a minute, why I'm telling this to _you_? Nevertheless, this topic has nothing to do with IFLI screenshots.


I would say a person who uploads pretend-hires-"Screenshots" of something that just IS NOT HIRES should do his homework.

Quote:

For everyone who gets all this "IFLI sucks/doesn't sucks" thing too serious: you shouldn't. Who cares? If you like it, good, a graphician's fun turned into a pleasure of yours. If you don't like it, that's fine too. Noone got hurt. So what's the big deal?


Well, I enjoy many IFLI-pictures, I'm not slagging every single one down. But you did put me up on the pillory with that most annoying "witch hunting" comment of yours, so i had to react...
2006-05-06 18:03
jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576
Quote:
You do see the difference between hires and lores on the bigscreen.


Ok, and do you see the differnce between FLI and Multicolor on the big screen? I don't see anyone spitting on FLI for the same matter.

Quote:
- You do NOT see the difference between UFLI and IFLI, because the beamers remove the flickering from the IFLI. This is indeed kinda unfair, since people will not see that a picture is interlaced.


Oh I get it now! So it's unfair because the other graphician chose to pixel in a graphics mode which looks less colorful on the bigscreen. So the one who used IFLI is to blame. Indeed, that makes perfect sense to me!

Quote:
Blended screenshots are reflecting what you see on a real C64 most accurate, while 320x200 shots do not reflect it. That was the point-


My personal opinion is still that an utterly ugly blended screenshot has less resemblance with the image we see on C64 than a dithered one. You could write me down the opposite for another 100 times, I'll still rather believe my eyes than your words.
2006-05-06 18:30
Graham
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990
Quote:
Ok, and do you see the differnce between FLI and Multicolor on the big screen? I don't see anyone spitting on FLI for the same matter.

Ok let's explain it a bit more so you don't miss the point one more time:

hires vs lores : you see the same on bigscreen and on real c64

koala vs FLI : you see the same on bigscreen and on real c64

IFLI vs UFLI : IFLI does not look the same as on real c64, while UFLI does
2006-05-06 18:36
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362
Look, JB, you need to wise up and calm down.
NOBODY ever accused you of wiring your stuff or cheating!
The point is: Your most favourite GFX-format CAN be used for
-cheating in Compos on the bigscreen, because you can't see flickering
-wiring stuff with hardly ANY work on the c64, because it's the closest you can get to direct 4bpp-320x200 resoultion without restrictions!

That does not mean anyone said YOU did that, and this is the most important part of the discussion!

It's a bit like the NRAs old slogan: "Guns don't kill - people do!"
Translated that could be "IFLI doesn't cheat - people do!"

And just like it is perfectly fine for some people to have guns (e.g. the police) that know how to use them (and not ABuse them!) IFLI is fine in the hands of the right people!

But I'd rather have a world without guns, I'd prefer if any conflict could be solved by peaceful means, if you catch my drift! ;-)

Nobody said that people cheat on the bigscreen JUST by using IFLI, but it CAN be used to cheat and fool people to see a picture quality that is just not there!

Quote:

My personal opinion is still that an utterly ugly blended screenshot has less resemblance with the image we see on C64 than a dithered one. You could write me down the opposite for another 100 times, I'll still rather believe my eyes than your words.


Well, if your eyes actually see rastered hires where there JUST IS NONE, you've definately been working IFLI for waaay too long! ;-)
2006-05-06 18:38
Graham
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990
(Something I forgot)

Quote:
My personal opinion is still that an utterly ugly blended screenshot has less resemblance with the image we see on C64 than a dithered one. You could write me down the opposite for another 100 times, I'll still rather believe my eyes than your words.

Seems more like a "I want to believe" statement to me. Imagine your eye REALLY being too slow to follow the 25 Hz flickering, what would you see? You would see the blended screenshots because that's what's happening with a too slow eye: the two images blend to one. Turn down the brightness of your monitor a bit on an IFLI to get the idea (dark colors are processed slower by the brain).
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