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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029 |
Does Interlace really suck ?
Back in 96 IFLI was all the hype, nobody really cared about the flickering if the picture was pixeled with a good technique.
Back in 96 Multicolor sized pixels were considered nice and not blocky, hires wasnt so overhyped.
and I think the shifting viewpoint to a great extent boils down to the wide used emulators. Everyone uses emulators today, and yes, interlace looks like shit in them, and multicolor pixels looks like huge square blocks in them.
Everyone should take some time and check the best laced pictures on a real thing with a real TV, and check multicolor / hires difference. I remember back in the time thinking that hires is actually to HIGH resolution, as a normal TV can hardly display such a pixels.
The lesson is: Interlace is only a flickering nightmare if not watched on TV, and multicolor pix has ugly big pixels only if not watched on a TV. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
Quote:Ok let's explain it a bit more so you don't miss the point one more time:
hires vs lores : you see the same on bigscreen and on real c64
koala vs FLI : you see the same on bigscreen and on real c64
IFLI vs UFLI : IFLI does not look the same as on real c64, while UFLI does
In this particular context we were discussing the matter on how can someone tell the difference of different graphicsmodes _on the bigscreen_, weren't we?
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote:
In this particular context we were discussing the matter on how can someone tell the difference of different graphicsmodes _on the bigscreen_, weren't we?
Urm... no. Because you just can't! |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
I think UFLI can generally produce a nice end result (depedant on the subject matter), but I do this for enjoyment and I simply find IFLI nicer to work with because there are so few technical issues to worry about when pixelling. When I have to spend 30 minutes anti-aliasing a curve in UFLI, the tedium really sets in, it just stops being enjoyable to me. Couple this with the the fact that I'm a freak who only releases about 10% of everything I do because I think the rest is crappy, the time spent in pixelling UFLI just feels like some kind of torture! :)
I very much respect the work TCH has done with UFLI, he's taken a little used mode and produced some fantastic pixelwork with it. The one thing I would say though is that what he's released so far has been mostly straight copies. Whilst they look really nice, it does make life much easier when pixelling a difficult mode. Personally I find making compsitions that I'm happy with difficult enough in IFLI, without any added complications!
Finally, the screenshots thing was done to death in another thread, but for the record I upload the "fake" hires shots because a) the merged ones look ugly and to me are no more of a true representation of IFLI b) From a personal point of view I'm interested to see the pixelling and you don't get that with a merged shot. I always label the modes on my pictures in CSDB, so it shouldn't be misleading anyone.
Oh and I agree with Oswald's original point (though interlace can sometimes look okay in an emaulator, it doesn't help that some people STILL use really ugly palettes!) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
@Deev: next one will be of my own design. ;) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Tch: Check your Email for chrissake! ;-) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Quote: @Deev: next one will be of my own design. ;)
damnit, then I'll have to think up another excuse for being lazy and still using IFLI! :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: damnit, then I'll have to think up another excuse for being lazy and still using IFLI! :)
Get a job at BAX-Global in Denmark.
Lots of time will be wasted with lots of excuses. ;)
@DeeKay,seriously thinking about it.
But no decision today as I am pretty fucked up..
Sorry for not reading my mail,but I was out of town. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Quote:Blended images are extraugly for my taste. Much uglier than emulated interlace, and I can't stand them.
Huh? With interlace you DO blend two 160x200 images, so you agree now that doing that is extra-ugly?
Quote:Whatever, I still find the blended images ugly. They simply look rubbish, and have nothing in common with the C64 images. The dithered images still look a bit more close to the original, and that's what counts in my opinion.
Huh? Blended shots only remove the interlace, while hires-shots remove the interlace AND show a detail which just isn't there... So you think that lying two times is more true than lying one time?
Quote:In this particular context we were discussing the matter on how can someone tell the difference of different graphicsmodes _on the bigscreen_, weren't we?
No we were discussing the fact that if the bigscreen shows something which isnt there, it's unfair. The C64 just is not able to do non-flickering IFLI... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029 |
Graham, imho interlace != blending.
as you say: "Blended shots only remove the interlace"
so you state that blending = interlace but blended shots removes interlace ?
"The C64 just is not able to do non-flickering IFLI..."
a good gfxman, and a suitable TV set can make flickering more than acceptable. Dont bring up y/c cables now, if my intention is not to see the flickering I obviously wont go for lame solutions.
IFLI just needs another TCH to do it a justice. Like TCH and UFLI. Anyone thought before TCH that ufli is a usable mode ? Using todays standards its possible to do fucking good pics in IFLI too imho, and its not the flickering / non flickering that makes a mode kewl. Its the graphician!
I remember back then showing a ifli pic in a demo was a technical achievment alone. Later we learned the lesson, a picture will not look good coz its hard to display it. But this also implies that a picture will not look bad because it flickers a bit. I'd exclude flicker horror too, but a technically good drawn IFLI has nothing to be in shame of. The shame is on the ppl who watch the picture in emulator. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Interlace is a way to blend two images because the brain needs a bit of time to process an image. However, it does not work perfect since humans still see the flickering, and that's what the entire discussion is about: Interlace can be very annoying, especially since it has become so common and the flickering is everywhere.
Ofcourse you can reduce the flickering, but one aspect of IFLI is that you cannot remove it. Also, most of the IFLI's I have seen definitely were NOT drawn with flicker-reduction in mind. Don't get me wrong: There are some nifty IFLI pictures out (no names, eheh) but for many IFLI pictures I would prefer a non flickering 160x200 version, or nowadays UFLI :) |
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