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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Notable vector parts?
Some of the finest 3D vectors seen on the C64, atleast of the top of my head are:
The Last Traktor 3/Hz - amazing flatshaded stuff, EOR-filling taken almost to perfection (I can't recall seeing it much improved upon in demos since).
One-Der/Oxyron - The gouraud shading just kicks, sure some of the more complex objects may run a bit slow, but just the fact that it handles objects other than your standard convex ones is fantastic. Also, the first tetrahedron runs at a pretty respectable framerate.
Natural Wonders/Oxyron - Dither vectors, smooth and nice looking, simply taking things to another level.
Anyone have any other notable examples of great 3D stuff taken to almost perfection in a C64 demo to share? Or perhaps the first instance when something was seen?
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Altered States? There have been probably been bigger or faster vectors, but that one deserves a mention for looking SO good. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
i always liked the stuff from wyndex, free camera movement at pretty decent framerate...thats rarely seen in other demos. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1629 |
Hehehe.. I guess that depends a on how you define "decent framerate", hehe.. |
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Trash
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Vector Victory (Vector-Victory) springs to mind as one of the first (at least early) and really good vector releases on the scene and also the game Elite springs to mind but it soen't qualify as a demo... |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I remember From Beyond / Asphyxia had some damn nice vectors. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
"Panta Rhei", face-cutting on vector objects with sub pixel accuracy. Yummie :). |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
!? |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 351 |
I liked that blue vector in the third part of Tower Power and of course the 72 faces glenz stuff too.
The Reflex demo before Mathematika also contained a vector part with very big vectors.
Monte
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Thanks for all the great suggestions! I had actually never seen "Vector Victory" before, a very nice example of early line vectors, running rather fast. I know The Larch 3/Bones had a pretty advanced linevector part back in 1989 already, but it didn't run near as smooth as the Vector Victory one. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
For line vectors, also check "the Masque" by Oxyron. Calculations in the disk drive, and quite optimized line shit (in teh computer). |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
IIRC Vector Victory calculates coordinates between objects, so only linedrawing (and maybe line clipping) is real time. I think scroll text tells that clipping code is from Fighter Bomber. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Desert Dream springs to mind. Not sure how fast it is, but the look'n'feel of fly-by scenes at the pyramids is very impressive and Amiga-ish.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1990 |
Quote: Desert Dream springs to mind. Not sure how fast it is, but the look'n'feel of fly-by scenes at the pyramids is very impressive and Amiga-ish.
When it comes to precalced vectors I think many Hollowman-demos kicks. |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
What if we start talking things like texturemapping in 4x4? I seem to recall seeing a routine that the coder said was one of the fastest texturemappers, and that it was so super-optimized that somehow he couldn't use col $0f in it!? Can't remember which demo though.
Then AEGs demos have had some really fast texturemappers as well... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
erh, that was me boasting stupidly here:
Larch
compared to the polish tmappers I have checked I had a tighter inner loop indeed.
but this one has faster texturing by the looks of it:
Nothing But Code
no 16 bit adds / pixel probably, but cheating somehow?
the fastest tmapping imho is here:
Outbreak
but its 'cheating' as hard as it can, you can see that on the quality of the textured object :) |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Thanks Oswald, Larch and Outbreak were the two demos I were thinking about!
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1629 |
Sounds like material for the "world firsts and world records" article on codebase?
http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:demo_world_records_and_w.. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
AEG's 4x4-texturer in "Outbreak" may be fast, but it's small, low on polygons, and the texture is jumping around like madness :/. Well, it's just me showing my bad side again ;). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
"yes it bugs, but hey, it's fast" =) thats what he told me about his sphere mapper anyway :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Sure hope none of these old tmappers are anywhere near my 7 cycles/pixel WIP. I also have an even faster goraud-shader on the way.
Just so you know.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
*holding my breath till X'08* :D |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 491 |
Quote: *holding my breath till X'08* :D
@Cruzer, yes! Should we wait for the X? :) |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Quote: Sure hope none of these old tmappers are anywhere near my 7 cycles/pixel WIP. I also have an even faster goraud-shader on the way.
Just so you know.
Nice! I was going to post something about texturemapping/gouraud seemingly being "out of style" at the moment since we don't see it as often nowadays, but perhaps we will see a grand comeback soon then? :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Seems like two of the most important vector parts haven't been mentioned yet.
First realtime filled vector in a C64 demo: My, Oh My/Light
First EOR-filled vector on C64: Elysion/Origo
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11146 |
i still wonder how you "fill a vector" =D |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
First vectors by an Australian group:
TAF - Demo Entry - The Force Comp 89
Improved vectors by the same coder:
Finesse Plus
Just an excuse to publicise my old groups work.
Steve
Conjuror/TF
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Quote: Sure hope none of these old tmappers are anywhere near my 7 cycles/pixel WIP. I also have an even faster goraud-shader on the way.
Just so you know.
what is a wip? 7cycles/pixel sounds pretty impossible. lda # sta ,x ? -> small texture, everything precalced? or lda $00 sta $xxxx -> what?! :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quote: i still wonder how you "fill a vector" =D
Not that discussion again :)
The term probably comes from the old vector screens where you could get the cathode ray to draw lines (e.g. used for the Asteroids arcade game), and thus line based graphics was known as vector graphics, and when someone started filling the space between the lines it became filled vector graphics, or just filled vector for short. Not that strange really.
Quote:*holding my breath till X'08* :D
Yeah, that would be a good time to release it, if it's done.
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: what is a wip? 7cycles/pixel sounds pretty impossible. lda # sta ,x ? -> small texture, everything precalced? or lda $00 sta $xxxx -> what?! :)
cheating way: make it so your texture co-ords mean that the texture can't be such that 1 texel < 1 pixel, set NMI to triger scale*7 cycles to incremener the texel pointers, lda zpage ; sta colourram
disclaimer: proabbyl wouldn't work :). also not _really_ 7 cycles/px ;). |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
EVERY FUCKEN POLISH DEMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quote: what is a wip? 7cycles/pixel sounds pretty impossible. lda # sta ,x ? -> small texture, everything precalced? or lda $00 sta $xxxx -> what?! :)
WIP = Work In Progress.
Hmm, seems I got my different ideas/routines mixed up, sorry! The one that I'm working on is actually 13 cycles/pixel. I have a number of different ideas for texture and gouraud routines, with the fastest for both of them being 3.5 cycles/pixel (lda# sta,x for two pixels.) Guess that's where I got the 7 cycles from. That one is just VERY limited when it comes to texture mapping, because of memory consumption, so it will only be able to handle a 16x16 triangle texture which is symmetrical on all axis. The gouraud version is more promising though.
So I decided to go with the 13 cycle version for tmapping, which is also limited to the same texture size, but it will be able to handle a lot of different textures (since each texture takes <1K) that could be used for e.g. a roundish object with different textures on each face, or combined to bigger faces where the division of the texture into smaller segments could add some perspective correctishness.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@Oswald: Thug Life/Essence does texturemapping with just one MOVE.B per pixel. And Oneder does gouraud with LDA ORA STA to render 4 (well actually 2) pixels.
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1047 |
Quote: Seems like two of the most important vector parts haven't been mentioned yet.
First realtime filled vector in a C64 demo: My, Oh My/Light
First EOR-filled vector on C64: Elysion/Origo
Brutal III had realtime filled vectors before My, Oh My... |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Yes, but it lacks 3D math.
And we shouldn't forget the vector demo by Sensible Software which was released in 1987 long before Light or other demo groups even thought about vectors at all. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
Graham,
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Oswald,
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5027 |
hehe :) |
