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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Stupid Hardrestart...
A question to all msx-player coders.
Why 99% of all players have a completely worse hardrestart???
I only know a few (not more than 5) which owns a really HARD = good sound-restart.
With every other player it's impossible to create modern/up-to-date instruments.
I think there are some nice editors (with nice interfaces) out there, but the completely outdated hardrestart destroys everything. :(
So, any explanation for this? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
its pretty simple: hardrestart is a very "modern" feature.
also hard restart isnt the holy grail. i personally like the "dirtyness" of some oldish players a lot :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Have you looked at ATDMS? Acid Track Music Development System V3.2
If I remember, it has 4 configurable hardrestart options, and the docs even explain how each is done. Btw. care to list those 5 good players, so that musicroutine coders can take heed?
And yeah, imagine something like the Rasputin tune with modern HR, it wouldn't sound near dirty enough for the subject matter it was used for unofficially :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Hard restart, is that a way to reset the oscilator to make the ADSR behave the same at each gate on? Or what is it all about? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
yes exactly...restarting vs free running oscillator. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
And is each A,D,S,R in respect to some zero value of the oscilators? That seems rather stupid to me. ;) Should be relative to gate on. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
oh adsr is only dependent on gate... "hard restart" makes the oscillator always start at a 0 transition when adsr is gated. thats actually a feature which is switchable in many synths (check "reason" for example, the substractor has that feature too) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
..and in the SID this is rather hard to do in exact manner because there are internal counters that can't be directly manipulated?
(or, to be more exact, it seems that it is possible to start from zero, but then the attack is oldschool Hubbard-like, and thus undesirable to nata. So, the difficulty is to start from near zero in a sexy manner, if I understand right) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
So... in old players using continious oscilator they always had gate on and only manipulated ADSR etc on each note then? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Have you looked at ATDMS? Acid Track Music Development System V3.2
If I remember, it has 4 configurable hardrestart options, and the docs even explain how each is done. Btw. care to list those 5 good players, so that musicroutine coders can take heed?
And yeah, imagine something like the Rasputin tune with modern HR, it wouldn't sound near dirty enough for the subject matter it was used for unofficially :)
Well, Jch+np20g4, SDI, DMC 5, SOSPEREC, CZP,...
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
Quote: Well, Jch+np20g4, SDI, DMC 5, SOSPEREC, CZP,...
after all, gt is missing in that list? what did cadaver (not) do to deserve this? :D
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: after all, gt is missing in that list? what did cadaver (not) do to deserve this? :D
Whoops, .... :D
Well, Jch+np20g4, SDI, DMC 5, SOSPEREC, CZP, -> GT <- ... |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Whoops, .... :D
Well, Jch+np20g4, SDI, DMC 5, SOSPEREC, CZP, -> GT <- ...
And the dosens of players you never tried.... |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: And the dosens of players you never tried....
Tssss, and maybe Future Composer has a gooooood HR??? ;))))))))) Sure not!
Then, tell me others! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
Quote:So... in old players using continious oscilator they always had gate on and only manipulated ADSR etc on each note then?
err what... gate is used to restart ADSR :) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Tssss, and maybe Future Composer has a gooooood HR??? ;))))))))) Sure not!
Then, tell me others!
1. Future Composer is NOT a player, but an editor originally made by Finish Gold on the 1. generation MoN player.
2. The 1. generation MoN player does NOT have hard restart.
I'll dig in my own garden, that what I know best.
- Laxity player v3.xx.
- JCH NP19
- JCH NP17
- A vast number of Jesper Olsen's players (Vibrants fellow)
- Some of Johannes Bjerregårds players
I bet you only tried those players that actually have an editor for them, right? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Quote:So... in old players using continious oscilator they always had gate on and only manipulated ADSR etc on each note then?
err what... gate is used to restart ADSR :)
The trick is to force the output "volume" of the oscilator to zero before gating on. Gating is just one bit, so if the volume of a timbre hasn't gone to zero, it'll just resume gating from the value it presently has. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: 1. Future Composer is NOT a player, but an editor originally made by Finish Gold on the 1. generation MoN player.
2. The 1. generation MoN player does NOT have hard restart.
I'll dig in my own garden, that what I know best.
- Laxity player v3.xx.
- JCH NP19
- JCH NP17
- A vast number of Jesper Olsen's players (Vibrants fellow)
- Some of Johannes Bjerregårds players
I bet you only tried those players that actually have an editor for them, right?
Of course, Future Composer is NOT a player. I guess, the player behind isn't really hardrestart-advanced. Everyone agrees?!
And of course, I only try players that have an userfriendly editor. Everything else is on my hate-list. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
TASS is a _quite_ userfriendly editor! |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
The Maniacs of Noise player used in Future Composer does not have hard restart, so there's nothing to agree upon.. It's simply not built in to that player.
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: The Maniacs of Noise player used in Future Composer does not have hard restart, so there's nothing to agree upon.. It's simply not built in to that player.
Yes, I know.
Anyway, I don't like these oldksool players+editors. Except maybe the sosperec editor+player. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Hard Restart has made composing a lot easier for a lot of people (including myself). But did you know that you can do music with hardly any ADSR bugs, without even manipulating ADSR and doing oscillator reset? Do check Tim Follin's music, he was a master of doing music with no "ADSR"-bug issues. So often it's a matter of knowing what to do.
All Tim did was to switch gate on/off... finding the right amount of gate off frames along with fitting ADSR values.
And another thing, I wouldn't say that using hard restart is a "must" for doing "up-to-date" sounds. A combination is what is needed now. In my latest player you have 16 definable HR settings which you access from the instrument itself, along with things like: using hard restart or not / amount of gate off frames before sound init / oscillator reset and also an option for doing it like Tim Follin (and possibly others) did ;-)... I believe it's a quite flexible system, but will ofcourse have to test it a bit more. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
So in that way it will be up to the composer how stupid the hard restart/init will be :-) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Same as it's up to the composer to compose some decent music ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
bah. composing is overrated! -> http://www.sonne-macht-krebs.de/mp3/1800sec_monotone_klangwelt... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Grabowski's player (sosperec) IMO wasn't oldschool... ;-) DOS and Cane had quite modern sound. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: bah. composing is overrated! -> http://www.sonne-macht-krebs.de/mp3/1800sec_monotone_klangwelt...
Whoa.. ;) Indeed composing is overrated! |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Quote: 1. Future Composer is NOT a player, but an editor originally made by Finish Gold on the 1. generation MoN player.
2. The 1. generation MoN player does NOT have hard restart.
I'll dig in my own garden, that what I know best.
- Laxity player v3.xx.
- JCH NP19
- JCH NP17
- A vast number of Jesper Olsen's players (Vibrants fellow)
- Some of Johannes Bjerregårds players
I bet you only tried those players that actually have an editor for them, right?
offtopic:
I and the HVSC use to write Bjerregaard instead of your version with the ring above a, which one's the right one? |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Bjerregaard, like Johannes spells it himself. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Grabowski's player (sosperec) IMO wasn't oldschool... ;-) DOS and Cane had quite modern sound.
Excactly! They composed some of the best tunes. Forever!
Sosperec editor offers quite a cool hard-restart. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
I strongly disliked DMC 5's HR. I had to work too hard on ADSR otherwise some bad things happened and somethings you could get a frame or 2 of no sound on a channel which can stand out a bit.
I never bothered too much with HR but then again I'm a very simple novice :) I'm waiting for a follow up thread in a few months where nata wasn't to disable HR. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
To be honest, there's a surprising amount of very hifi/modern sounding C64 music (in addition to Follin) that doesn't use HR at all, but usually gateoff for at least 2-3 frames. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: To be honest, there's a surprising amount of very hifi/modern sounding C64 music (in addition to Follin) that doesn't use HR at all, but usually gateoff for at least 2-3 frames.
Good examples? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Ouwehand, later Hubbard, CreaMD to just name a few.. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Ouwehand, later Hubbard, CreaMD to just name a few..
Hmm, for my taste Ouwhand+Hubbard aren't really hifi. :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
To some degree agreed about Hubbard, there are only a very few select tunes (for example Ace II, or IK+) that sound quite "new", and in the end he went to USA and accepted (was forced to accept?) the dreaded NTSC sound :)
But I don't know what the fuck should be changed in for example Last Ninja 3 or Flimbo tunes for them to be accepted in your holy hifi criteria.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Could someone please clarify this hard restart for me. I'm just a bit confused. When setting the gate bit the ADS logic is started right? and when unsetting the gate bit the Release kicks in. So, what's the deal with hard restart then? In what way does it "enhance" the wave form? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Polishing of sound always leads to sacryfying of "drive" and natural feeling. Some Taki, DOS or Grabowski's songs sound very polished and more like soundtests. Good music isn't just hifi sounds and drumbeats..
PEET (Fly_Around_the_World.sid) or CANE (Liberator_title.sid) tried to make make music in sosperec (although sometimes with variable instant-hit-potential).
I must admint though, that I don't have a slightest right to judge the hungarian elite composers ;-)) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Jackasser, it makes sure that the next attack indeed starts (especially in fast passages -- to counteract the SID's somewhat flaky internal ADSR logic), and that it starts in the same way every time.
Then there's the "sexy" factor what nata demands: the first frame of sound (usually noise in drum, or combined drum+bass instruments) is short, neat and controlled sounding. And bugfree :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
@JackAsser:
If the ADSR curve of the previous note has not ended yet, Attack will not start from 0. This is especially a problem when the ADSR phase has not even started the Release phase.
The oscillator reset is not required for hardrestart, but some players do it. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
@Cadaver: I see. So a quick off-on pulse on the gate bit doesn't always result in a new attack? Any reasons why? Also, in practise, how is this hard restart implemented. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
It's all in the internal logic, for example resid should mimic the real ADSR hardware quite exactly, look in the source code how it uses & sets the internal counters :)
Some frames before next note, the gate is set off. Then on the same frame or slightly after, the ADSR is reset to a fixed value, for example $0F00 or $0000, to make the envelope generator go to 0 controllably. Based on timing and write order (ie. waveform or ADSR first), different feel for the attack & first frame of the next note is reached.
The "sexy" hardrestart seems to happen so that ADSR is always written before waveform, and $0F00 is usually used. So:
T minus 3: ADSR to $0F00, gate off
T minus 2: nothing special, gate is still off
T minus 1: ADSR to instrument values, gate on (waveform reg. value $09 for oscillator reset or $01 for plain gateon)
T minus 0: set waveform & frequency + all other stuff for new note
On the other hand, the oldskool Hubbard method (Commando etc.) writes waveform first:
T minus 2: gate off, ADSR $0000
T minus 1: nothing happens
T minus 0: set waveform, ADSR, frequency etc. for new note.
This produces longer/louder first frame sound, which is not sexy :) But it is less susceptible to timing changes, and works mostly the same way on NTSC too.
There are also other methods of hardrestart, see the documentation of ATMDS, which lists 4 of them (and all of them should be sexy, so the Hubbard HR is not included) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
@cadaver: Ahh I see. Interesting. :D |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: offtopic:
I and the HVSC use to write Bjerregaard instead of your version with the ring above a, which one's the right one?
I guess Thomas spelled it with hardrestaart. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: To some degree agreed about Hubbard, there are only a very few select tunes (for example Ace II, or IK+) that sound quite "new", and in the end he went to USA and accepted (was forced to accept?) the dreaded NTSC sound :)
But I don't know what the fuck should be changed in for example Last Ninja 3 or Flimbo tunes for them to be accepted in your holy hifi criteria.
A hardrestart? Those later tunes are made in 20cc and MoN player. I tried to achieve that fast tick I heard in Reyn's Flimbo tune(which sounds like a chicken singing tiktok) in the Dutch USA player back then, it was just impossible, I got only a bit close with use of pulse manipulation and a high Decay, if I remember correct. Then again, I'm only speculating on the HR in 20cc and MoN player, so maybe Falco and Charles managed to get the chickensound without HR. Theories. Theories. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Ah, I was talking partially shit .. LN3 uses hardrestart for some instruments, but not all (checked with siddump)
Is the chickensound the same short chirp as in the beginning of LN3 subtune 6? That's without HR. Siddump doesn't handle Flimbo yet for some reason, so can't check that :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Ah, I was talking partially shit .. LN3 uses hardrestart for some instruments, but not all (checked with siddump)
Is the chickensound the same short chirp as in the beginning of LN3 subtune 6? That's without HR. Siddump doesn't handle Flimbo yet for some reason, so can't check that :)
not that chirp, allthough that ln3 #6 does sound like a chicken too, the last chicken, har har... sigh. Also Deadlock tune 2 has this chirpchirp in the melody. Guess thats also achieved by having pulse first wave, a few frames saw, then back to pulse, adding a bit of delay in the sound. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Ah, OK. Btw. at least Flimbo's introtune doesn't use hardrestart, it exists in the driver but isn't used (I put an endless loop JMP in its place and the intro didn't halt)
EDIT: fixed siddump's indirect JMP handling (new version uploaded), patched Flimbos_Quest.sid to not use interrupt playback, and confirmed this.
Btw. Deadlock seems to be all no-HR also. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: It's all in the internal logic, for example resid should mimic the real ADSR hardware quite exactly, look in the source code how it uses & sets the internal counters :)
Some frames before next note, the gate is set off. Then on the same frame or slightly after, the ADSR is reset to a fixed value, for example $0F00 or $0000, to make the envelope generator go to 0 controllably. Based on timing and write order (ie. waveform or ADSR first), different feel for the attack & first frame of the next note is reached.
The "sexy" hardrestart seems to happen so that ADSR is always written before waveform, and $0F00 is usually used. So:
T minus 3: ADSR to $0F00, gate off
T minus 2: nothing special, gate is still off
T minus 1: ADSR to instrument values, gate on (waveform reg. value $09 for oscillator reset or $01 for plain gateon)
T minus 0: set waveform & frequency + all other stuff for new note
On the other hand, the oldskool Hubbard method (Commando etc.) writes waveform first:
T minus 2: gate off, ADSR $0000
T minus 1: nothing happens
T minus 0: set waveform, ADSR, frequency etc. for new note.
This produces longer/louder first frame sound, which is not sexy :) But it is less susceptible to timing changes, and works mostly the same way on NTSC too.
There are also other methods of hardrestart, see the documentation of ATMDS, which lists 4 of them (and all of them should be sexy, so the Hubbard HR is not included)
Could you explain the other 3 methods, Lasse?.. I'd be might interested in knowing how those are, and if they have different characteristics?
HR test: Bjerregård, Bjerregård, Bjerregård... ;)
And now without: Bjerregaard .. And with osc. reset and no HR: Bjarnegaard!.. Osc reset AND HR: Bjarnegård.. 'Sigh'
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Have you looked at ATDMS? Acid Track Music Development System V3.2
If I remember, it has 4 configurable hardrestart options, and the docs even explain how each is done. Btw. care to list those 5 good players, so that musicroutine coders can take heed?
And yeah, imagine something like the Rasputin tune with modern HR, it wouldn't sound near dirty enough for the subject matter it was used for unofficially :)
@cadaver:
ATMDS has a quite nice hardrestart. :)
Unfortunately it's system is based on DUR.
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Maybe it's worth to consider why there aren't any SIMPLE trackers (SDI, JCH...is already too complex) that offers a good hardrestart.
'John Player' is disqualified since it is extremely limited. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: To some degree agreed about Hubbard, there are only a very few select tunes (for example Ace II, or IK+) that sound quite "new", and in the end he went to USA and accepted (was forced to accept?) the dreaded NTSC sound :)
But I don't know what the fuck should be changed in for example Last Ninja 3 or Flimbo tunes for them to be accepted in your holy hifi criteria.
Na, LN3 is really ok, but the most others.... :-I
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
Quote:'John Player' is disqualified since it is extremely limited.
did you ever take a minute and question your own attitude?
(tho, this is nitpicking, anything might count concerning this matter. =) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Quote:'John Player' is disqualified since it is extremely limited.
did you ever take a minute and question your own attitude?
(tho, this is nitpicking, anything might count concerning this matter. =)
Of course: it's nitpicking... :D |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Quote:'John Player' is disqualified since it is extremely limited.
Check out Reeds latest tunes (the ones from Boogie Factor, for example) and then reconsider, please. Doesn't sound as if it's coming from an "extremely limited" player. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 454 |
And Aleksi's latest too. I wish there were more tunes like "Second Steps" released. It doesn't sound a slightest bit oldskool, it's fresh, up to date, newstyle, whichever description suits you best. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
nata is disqualified since his skills are extremely limited.
o_O |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
@Laxity: I never remember them right, so you'd better look up in the docs. At least one method was based on putting $FF to sustain/release register. Furthermore, (in ATMDS) they're configurable in the sense of how much time there is between the HR frames.
Btw. duration-based editors will always be superior in freedom they offer. And isn't Sosperec duration based? :)
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Surprisingly not every Cane & DOS tune was composed in the sosperec editor.... :)
I guess they used Chubrocker. It's easy to recognize these songs since the quality of the instruments is (in comparison to sosperec) quite low. :P
---
Anyway, polished sounds are a MUST for me.
I attached here 3 examples to show what can be done with GOOD hardrestart:
Example1:
- Listen to the 'polished' drums. (Uses hardrestart)
- Arpeggios doesn't use hardrestart
Example2:
- Every instrument uses hardrestart
Example2:
- For the bass sound I disabled the whole hardrestart.
http://rapidshare.de/files/25726672/examples.rar.html
---
@jeff
Yes I agree! A combination of both makes it sound cool! (no hardrestart & hardrestart)
However, it's nothing special to do cool musics without hardrestart. (bug free)
The only thing to remember: Careful usage of ADSR values. :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Quote:'John Player' is disqualified since it is extremely limited.
Check out Reeds latest tunes (the ones from Boogie Factor, for example) and then reconsider, please. Doesn't sound as if it's coming from an "extremely limited" player.
Yes, but it has a lot limitations that I don't like.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Maybe the heart of the matter is: why go around badmouthing editors of the past (with obviously limited features), why reveal how intolerant & limited your taste is, why not just stick to the editors you like and make the music you like :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Maybe the heart of the matter is: why go around badmouthing editors of the past (with obviously limited features), why reveal how intolerant & limited your taste is, why not just stick to the editors you like and make the music you like :)
Because there is hardly anything I like? :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: Maybe the heart of the matter is: why go around badmouthing editors of the past (with obviously limited features), why reveal how intolerant & limited your taste is, why not just stick to the editors you like and make the music you like :)
Exactly! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: Surprisingly not every Cane & DOS tune was composed in the sosperec editor.... :)
I guess they used Chubrocker. It's easy to recognize these songs since the quality of the instruments is (in comparison to sosperec) quite low. :P
---
Anyway, polished sounds are a MUST for me.
I attached here 3 examples to show what can be done with GOOD hardrestart:
Example1:
- Listen to the 'polished' drums. (Uses hardrestart)
- Arpeggios doesn't use hardrestart
Example2:
- Every instrument uses hardrestart
Example2:
- For the bass sound I disabled the whole hardrestart.
http://rapidshare.de/files/25726672/examples.rar.html
---
@jeff
Yes I agree! A combination of both makes it sound cool! (no hardrestart & hardrestart)
However, it's nothing special to do cool musics without hardrestart. (bug free)
The only thing to remember: Careful usage of ADSR values. :)
I doubt any musician here will be interested. *Your music is what defines you...* opinions, definitions, claims and complaints are irrelevant. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
@creamd
Feel free to have doubts... :P |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
@Laxity: now I think I understand one more of the methods listed in ATMDS docs:
T minus 2 (or more?): gate off
T minus 1: ADSR to $0F0F, oscillator reset if needed
T minus 0: Init note
According to my experiments this is a quite forgiving HR that lets one use full sustain, write order doesn't really matter, and it never bugs horribly. On the flipside, attack of new note may vary according to the previous note's ADSR setting.
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: @Laxity: now I think I understand one more of the methods listed in ATMDS docs:
T minus 2 (or more?): gate off
T minus 1: ADSR to $0F0F, oscillator reset if needed
T minus 0: Init note
According to my experiments this is a quite forgiving HR that lets one use full sustain, write order doesn't really matter, and it never bugs horribly. On the flipside, attack of new note may vary according to the previous note's ADSR setting.
Hmmm? ADSR to $0F0F ??? Doesn't this produce bad/choppy restart?
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@Cadaver
Yes, the sosperec is DUR. based. I have no clue why, but somehow I like it. Anyway, composing music with DUR. cmd's isn't fun. :I |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
@Nata: It's not the same as if you put $0F0F to GT's HR ADSR parameter. The timing of the frames is different, and there's no gated on silent first frame (wave $09). |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: @Nata: It's not the same as if you put $0F0F to GT's HR ADSR parameter. The timing of the frames is different, and there's no gated on silent first frame (wave $09).
Ahaaa! Ok! :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
@cadaver
How $0F0F will sound (not in GT)?
I THINK it doesn't produce a *quality* HR... or maybe? Cadaver?
Which editors use $0F0F ?
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
all methods have their ups and downs. there isnt THE hardrestart. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
$0F0F is in DMC4 I think.
We can define "the" hardrestart as what is pleasing to nata. ;)
But yeah, "quality" hardrestart doesn't quite fit when the screen is depicting sodomy or other such acts ;) Maybe when/if there are robots performing it, but even then it's a stretch.. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
... and therefore many, many, many prefer DMC5 :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
... after they disable hardrestart entirely? According to some it's unusable :)
Or, if used properly, it seems to sound just like JCH. So we have only concluded that JCH & DMC5 have a nata-approved HR, and if you like that then you should use these editors :) |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Hardrestart is only when used properly. Personally I grew tired of using hardrestart therefore I use it less than before. Also not using hardrestart sometimes give a more organic and less stiff sound - which I like. For me it is not about hardrestart or not but about using the player to create the music you like. Focusing too much on technical details sometimes kills the music. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
I agree totally with the above statement. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
indeed. ROCK'N'ROLL!!!! |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Did Jeroen Tel use a lot of HardRestart stuff?
If not,it´s just a minor detail,nothing more.. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Sometimes, for example Hawkeye has HR, Turbo Outrun / Outrun Europa tunes don't. It seems he, like Hubbard, gravitated from using HR to not using: careful ADSR settings and long gateoff times actually achieve sharper attack. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Thank you Cadaver! 8)
Seems to me that HR is an option,not a necessity. ;) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Though, notice that this attack without HR, when working nicely, is actually the same what nata expects from a JCH-like HR :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Aah,I see..
@Nata,keep playing around!
Your last collection was pretty good,but there is more to learn! ;)
Keep´em coming! 8) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: ... and therefore many, many, many prefer DMC5 :)
But DMC4.0 could play on speed 0. (where you have pretty cool BPM with minimum dur.05) If you try the same speed (0) in DMC5.0 you have to make 2c to 0fc7... (disabling hardrestart in the code) otherwise the attacks of the sounds get completely out of control. And btw. as DRAX said.. too much hardrestart sounds stiff. That's true.
...and making looped echos in DMC 5.0 is pain in the ass, thanx to audible hardrestart in the end of "sectors" and also on SND changes. 'orribul... ;-) But well.. I got used to dur based editing and DMC's keyboard shortcuts so much, that I will probably be still using next 30 years..
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Aah,I see..
@Nata,keep playing around!
Your last collection was pretty good,but there is more to learn! ;)
Keep´em coming! 8)
... it was my first collection + last collection. :D
---
Btw. I will never use a DUR. based editor. It's only a waste of time.
With trackers YOU can work quite more effective. :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: ... it was my first collection + last collection. :D
---
Btw. I will never use a DUR. based editor. It's only a waste of time.
With trackers YOU can work quite more effective. :)
trackers shmackers... who cares.. ;-)
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Well, I I can see nothing useful on DUR. players. :)
They are much (!!!MUCH!!!) harder to use. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
you are just incapable to learn them. EOT. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Sure not! But I have zero interest to spend/waste time in things I hardly am interested. :)
For me: Trackers are GOOD, DUR.-Editors are BAD. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11130 |
only fools blame the tools. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Tssss....
we will see ... |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Actually no. We won't see. You like trackers, fair enough, but your rigid attitude towards the whole subject of composing music on the 64 doesn't do you credit, Nata. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Actually no. We won't see. You like trackers, fair enough, but your rigid attitude towards the whole subject of composing music on the 64 doesn't do you credit, Nata.
Ok, then we won't see. :P :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Now let's come back to topic ...
Let's say a certain player/editor has a quite "OK" hardrestart, but is slightly inaccurate on the first waveform after the $09. (F.ex it extremely bugs if you play several notes consecutively...)
09 00
51 AA ; always starts slightly inaccurate
11 AA
11 A5
10 A0
10 98
10 90
10 81
FF 10
What can be done to solve this problem? It's possible to hack (no player source available)
Maybe someone could help? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2851 |
Hacking is always an option. :D |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Possible nonhacking option: maybe create another version of instrument where gateoff starts earlier? (or manually gate from the pattern)
Btw. you can name the player/editor. That way it's more educational for everyone. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035 |
Quote: Possible nonhacking option: maybe create another version of instrument where gateoff starts earlier? (or manually gate from the pattern)
Btw. you can name the player/editor. That way it's more educational for everyone.
TFX? ;-) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Digitalizer V3.5 |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Hmm, I saw the player code doing a
lda #$00
sta $d404,x
sta $d405,x
sta $d406,x
This is usually meant to be done only 1 frame before note init, because it cuts out sound completely in addition to hardrestart. The same as in ninjatracker - it won't accomplish a reliable "hifi" HR. Major hacking would be in order.
Btw. there IS the player source as a turboassembler file on the second disk. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Digitalizer V3.5
Haha! Funny to see, how fast the download-counter increases now. :D |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Actually, I might have been talking out of my ass, that code snippet above doesn't seem to appear in the actual player source code. Though, the source code suggests on a cursory glance that there is no automatic HR at all :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Hmm. :-I
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
I think it's possible to set a "gate" value for each instrument.
Anyway, it's possible to 'hack'?? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Why not ask GRG? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
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