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ZZAP69
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 30 |
Best LCD TV-set for the C64?
Most people I've talked to, doesn't recommend a LCD TV as a C64 monitor, but my question is: which is the best one? I'm looking forward to a slick C64 setup with 1541U and a very portable monitor. :D
Tobias |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I think that new Samsung LED-TV thing is quite alright... but that's just by judging from the adverts :P |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Does anyone have experiences with the LCD or Plasma TVs and a C64 with Scart attached to it? Do they swallow the non standard signal without problems? It would definitely influence my buying decision, gonna get myself such a 90-100 cm monster, but if Armalyte is only displayed in Black/White or it doesn't sync at all to the signal of the 64, it would be downright worthless to me. ;-) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
I have seen modern TVs with VERY bad c64 quality.
2 of my semi-modern monitors failed to get a stable image at all. Some recent TVs have troubles with signal and produce heavy "comb" features.
My advice, only buy when you have seen/heard of a c64 connected to them.
What might work in several cases: plug a VCR or alike inbetween? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Thanks for the heads up. Let's hope some more people share their experience about that topic. By the way, sorry for kind of hijacking that thread, but I think the questions are similar, so we can combine forces in this one. |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
I have an old Compaq 2025 TFT monitor with S-VHS input. When using this with my various C64s, some have color, some only B/W. Some change between B/W and color. Using the Composite input always works properly.
My advice: Try before you buy!
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Yeah imagine the following situation:
Customer in the multimedia compartment of the next electronic superstore.
"Hey, clerk, would you mind me attaching that to some TVs? And yes, could you please bring me an extension cord?"
;-) |
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Edhellon
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 20 |
I think WVL and Clarence both have the same LCD monitor (Ok, not an LCD TV, but still...) and they did quite a bit of research before setting on a particular type. AFAIR one of the key features to look for is proper support for 50hz signal. But I'm sure WVL will step in and fill us in regarding the exact type, features, whatsoever. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Ehr.. don't ask me :D My c64 doesnt work on my LCD-monitor, despite other stuff that does work..
I have the Neovo X-19AV (black), and Clarence has the X-17AV (white). And for Clarence, it DOES work.
The most important is not proper 50hz support, because c64 isnt proper 50hz either... Most important is that the tft is flexible, and the more modern they seem to be, the less flexible. Pretty annoying actually.
Anyway, you can never be sure it works, until you test it. Same for beamers, although they seem to be more flexible than most lcd-screens.. |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
The most annoying thing with the Sony LCD-TV I've got is that the deinterlacing can't be disabled. This means the TV tries to reduce what it thinks is a 50 fps interlaced source to a 25 fps progressive one. The C64 obviously doesn't have an interlaced output but rather a 50 fps progressive one (or atleas it only ouput either odd or even fields), but the TV doesn't understand that. As a result, games with scrolling gets jerky and interlaced tricks (like Rainbow Islands alternating the color of one of the collected diamonds each frame) gets completely destroyed... All in all the LCD makes C64 game playing and demo watching about as much fun as using VICE on my laptop, but luckily my old Sony CRT have come to the rescue :-) |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
These are the reasons the Chameleon cart will rock, whenever it will be available:
http://allt.jonatanforsberg.net/krams/c64/50chameleon.html |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Some LCDs have a setting called "Game Mode", which typically disables deinterlacing and other image "enhancements" that interferes with game consoles (and thus also C64s). Try looking for something like that in the spec sheet.
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Maybe to show what I mean :
I tried my c64 on my LCD-tv (a JVC LT37P80b), and the picture looks really fine. But. The tv is really fixed to displaying either 50 or 60hz. So you get frameskip with the 50.12 Hz c64 signal (about every 8 seconds, the screen jumps). It's really really really annoying and I doubt other tv's are any better at stuff like that.. It's like watching VICE on a 50hz lcd monitor.. exactly the same kind of frameskips. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
Mr. Schoenfeld more specifically on the Chameleon Cart:
"The video chip shares the bus with the CPU, and this shared bus is on the expansion port. Chameleon will sniff the bus and see all the data that the VIC is pulling from memory. This data will be used to build a new picture, which is to be written to a frame buffer. The frame buffer will be output to a VGA monitor at a higher frame rate in order to have VGA-compatible frequencies." |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: Mr. Schoenfeld more specifically on the Chameleon Cart:
"The video chip shares the bus with the CPU, and this shared bus is on the expansion port. Chameleon will sniff the bus and see all the data that the VIC is pulling from memory. This data will be used to build a new picture, which is to be written to a frame buffer. The frame buffer will be output to a VGA monitor at a higher frame rate in order to have VGA-compatible frequencies."
Yesyesyes, but you still cannot find lcd-screens that will do 50.12 hz. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: Yesyesyes, but you still cannot find lcd-screens that will do 50.12 hz.
Please re-read the final sentence in that last post of mine. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
A non-matching refresh rate means you will either have tearing or a reoccuring irregularity in the framerate, unless you use some kind of interframe blending, and that's not possible if you display the graphics in real time. Could be solved by delaying the output by one frame though. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: Please re-read the final sentence in that last post of mine.
OK, then please find a lcd that does 100.24 Hz ;) What I'm trying to say : you will get frameskips, no matter what. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: OK, then please find a lcd that does 100.24 Hz ;) What I'm trying to say : you will get frameskips, no matter what.
You may be right, I just thought that the guy would have given the problem a thought when saying "the complete VIC-II is cloned in Chameleon in order to generate the exact same picture", and come up with a solution. But I dunno.. and it seems like the cart is delayed anyhow. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
macx: Thing is, the timing in a PAL C64 is hardwired to run against a 50.12 Hz screen, so you will run into display skewing problems unless you can find a screen which allows for a refresh rate that's evenly dividable by 50.12. There is no clever way around it, the "best" solution is to compensate for the skew by blending the would-be-skewed frames into an accurate intermediate.
(Edit: Why does no emulator feature this as of yet?) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
tss.. swappers... ;) |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: tss.. swappers... ;)
Yep. Pure elite us traders are :-)
RadX. Gotcha!
/trying to escape from nephrology studies |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Not that I think it would be a very great idea, but just out of curiosity: Would it be easy to modify a C64 to run at precisely 50hz? |
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Sasq
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 155 |
What we need is a magic box with analog video/audio in and digital out that can do all the things we want, ie;
o Correct interlace handling
o Buffering of images to allow for slight reduction or increase in framerate by just playing slightly slower/faster
o Real telecine / inverse telecine frame rate conversion
o Scanline / PAL emulation
o etc...
Any hardware hacker with a year or two to spare? :)
(Come to think of it there is probably commercial hardware that does much of this, but I bet it costs a shitload).
EDIT: Oh, and for the second feature to work it must also remove or add black frames whenever it can to compensate :)
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Sasq: Still, with all that, realtime is a no-go. :-( |
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Clarence
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 119 |
@WVL: this is strange bcoz I tested a monitor like yours before buying mine, and both worked. On the downside the Neovo has a 25ms refresh rate (thus a bit blurry) and the c64 colors feels a bit strange (even after adjusting it a lot), but I got used to it. I'm not sure if it's still being produced.
Also... Hollowman/FLT has a working lcd tv configuration afaik, ask him for the type.
If an lcdtv/tft monitor has explicit PAL 50hz support on it's feature list then that's a very good sign, but as someone stated before me, you must try it to be really sure.
Also, I kept an eye on this promising c64-vga project: http://www.commodorescene.servebbs.org/vga.html
but it seems to be dead for some reason. :(
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Sasq
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 155 |
Yes it would be mostly for watching demos - but some of the features could of course be used realtime.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quoting Clarence
Also... Hollowman/FLT has a working lcd tv configuration afaik, ask him for the type.
In 2004 I bought an Andersson Y1/02 15" TV and in 2006 an Andersson Y70HD 32" TV. Some googling says that they are probably made by a Turkish manufacturer and then sold under the Andersson name by netonnet.se
The good thing is that they are cheap and have plenty of different inputs and the ones I have work fine with c64. But they do lag a bit when watching 50Hz effects, so I can't recommend them fully. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 250 |
My external tv-card has worked good enough for me the past three years (not necessary to route via a pc) on my li´l 17", but I guess when going down to these anal bits on delays and stuff it is as sucky as anything else.
Hollow: is the picture flickering _at_all_ with those Andersson screens? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
To repeat my question... ...but phrased slightly differently:
Wouldn't it be easier to make a mod for the c64 so it runs on 50hz than building all kinds of advanced converters to make 50.12 -> 50 artificially? I guess it might affect the frequences on the SID or something too, in that case, right? ...but that effect would be quite small anyway, and hardly noticeable, right?
//FTC |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: To repeat my question... ...but phrased slightly differently:
Wouldn't it be easier to make a mod for the c64 so it runs on 50hz than building all kinds of advanced converters to make 50.12 -> 50 artificially? I guess it might affect the frequences on the SID or something too, in that case, right? ...but that effect would be quite small anyway, and hardly noticeable, right?
//FTC
Probably, yeah. You'd only have to swap the crystal, i think. But I wonder if a crystal with that kind of frequency is available at all. Also, the sound will be off-key. |
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Nightlord
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
this topic is interesting and i have missed it all this time.
the idea of swapping the crystal to get exact 50 hz is interesting. what we put in its place does not have to be a "crystal", it can be a highly tuned separate oscillator circuit.
if the frequency difference (50.12/50) affects all frequencies generated by by SID linearly (i don't know if this is true. i am not even sure if SID uses the clock as a source to its audio oscillators, i doubt that it does) than the off-key-ness would be still quite smaller than a half step in chromatic scale (i.e the difference between c and c#). So my hunch is that, this should totally be doable. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Slowing down the machine to get better compatibility with modern bad TV:s doesn't sound like a good idea... What about IO, wouldn't there be problems? I guess it could probably be done with some work, but it's not exactly a nice solution to begin with, making the machine slower...
Better just get a good TV set instead. I'm using a 29" 4:3 Sony Trinitron from 2004 both for watching TV, movies and as a C64 screen. Highly recommended, one of my best purchases ever. Crystal clear picture, while losing none of that analogue coziness.
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j0x
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 215 |
I don't think slowing a PAL C64 down by 0.24% would lead to a lot of problems with loaders, since loaders "sync up" with the drive anyway. We're talking 1 cycle of "phasing" every 400 cycles. No guarantees, though ;)
radiantx, I have a similar TV set, and I was really disappointed with the picture. Even on a blank screen, each pixel stands out, like Vice's PAL emulation turned up to 11, so I'm back on my tiny 1701 monitor with its droning 50Hz hum coming through the speaker. I connected to the TV set using an S-video cable. How do you connect?
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I use an RCA cable (with mono audio). |
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Sasq
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 155 |
Just thought I'd mention:
While my Samsung Flatscreen doesn't seem to handle any old or non-standard video, I recently bought a Denon AVR-1610 receiver that DOES. It works pretty well with the C64 and interlaced stuff in particular looks (almost too) good. The picture is slightly unstable though, something to do with the interlacing I guess.
So if you are thinking of shelling out money for a receiver anyway, this may be the reason to go ahead.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Got myself a Panasonic GW10 recently (plasma, so sorry for being a tiny bit OT ;-) ) and after fiddling a bit with the various cable connections (Scart looks like shit!) I can say that connecting it via S-Video/Mini-Din plug produces a pretty good picture. I got no frame skips with scrollers at all, so it seems to sync to the 50.12 Hertz perfectly. And after toning down the sharpness default of 5/10 to 0/10 the picture looks pretty nice. It's got a bit of shadow tearing to the right, but with pixel graphics this introduces kind of a little PAL blurring effect, it's not as crystal sharp as expected. A big downside is that it doesn't show any interlace at all, the internal circuits just blend the two frames together to show one. Can't say it looks too bad from a 3 m distance, but it's not quite what you're used to see. Anyway, I'm pretty ok with the result, more than fine enough for an occasional demo session without getting eye cancer. |
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Almighty God
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 18 |
Well, I had now an AcerTV model: 2055 and looks quite similar results than yours, Steppe. I try DeusexMachina today first and everything is quite ok but Interlacedfli pics doesn't flicker and looks similar to what you said. I think this is probably the best we can get from these monitors, looking forward to see what Chamaleon can do...
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deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
i got my c64 through 42" lg fullhd composite (4:3). its awesome. :P usually like this http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs195.snc3/20278_2.. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Folks, I'd like to compare some frontal detail shots. Would anyone mind taking some and upload them somewhere? Gonna do so myself tomorrow evening. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
http://www.lg.com/uk/it-products/monitors/LG-lcd-monitor-M227WD..
anyone met this one ? seems to have a game mode someone suggested :) |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Game mode, movie mode ect. usually means factory presets for brigtness/contrast/gamma etc. And I wouldn't expect any of modern LCD/LED/Plasma TVs to not have the interlace compensation for AV/S-video (unless clearly stated in the specs)....wich simply means all interlaced gfx modes looks like badly done drunken NUFLI.
Worst thing is, you can't disable it... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
"Some LCDs have a setting called "Game Mode", which typically disables deinterlacing and other image "enhancements" that interferes with game consoles" |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Mine also has a "game mode". Doesn't do shit except to have shitty colour presets and it's said to reduce latency by some ms. Apart from that the game mode looks the same as in cinema mode or in normal mode. ;-) |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
One other option that I discovered recently, is instead of actually trying to get your TV to understand the c64's input signal, instead using an external upscaler for the c64 - I bought one online earlier this month (I'm in the USA at the moment, and TV's that do PAL natively here seem as rare as flying elephants). The one I bnought was $80, and upscales the PAL signal to a 720p HDMI output, whcih the TV then won't actually try and fix further (unlike a 576i signal, whcih of course it will). I havn't tried this on a 50hz output tho, but it actually does a really good job of doing 50hz -> 60hz conversation as well (using the standard "n% frame 1, n% frame 2" method of doing so).
I'll post something about how it works PAL -> PAL when I get back home in a couple of weeks. But if someone else has a similar device, maybe they can comment on this :). I
I remmeber also a long time ago, Ray/Unreal used a PAL -> VGA convertor that worked quite well, and a lot of TVs disable processing on their VGA ports. however, it seems some newer TVs are actually blocking 50hz on the VGA in (particularly the samsung ones, which is a pain for me since my PVR outputs vga 50hz ;)) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
yup, I have found its manual, game mode is just a stupid preset.
btw what is picture phase ? the manual says it may be adjusted when using "external equipment", also "auto configure" will adjust phase&clock(&other), does that it mean it can fine adjust to 50.12 hz ?:D |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1055 |
Specs and manuals unfortunately don't tell you what you need. You have to test it to see how it handles the signal from a C64 (which is HORRIBLY out of spec :). |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 333 |
Quoting Oswald"Some LCDs have a setting called "Game Mode", which typically disables deinterlacing and other image "enhancements" that interferes with game consoles"
Hm. Will check that with my Panasonic Plasma.
As to clock/phase i don't think it will say Hz. Usually you just get a bar. Though it may though help to reduce some interference if there would be any (I didn't notice for C64). In normal LCD monitors it was helping for tuning of the vga signal whenever the proportions of small fonts were visually different in each row/column of text, say in cmdline or putty.. but that made sense fo resolutions like 1240x1024. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: Specs and manuals unfortunately don't tell you what you need. You have to test it to see how it handles the signal from a C64 (which is HORRIBLY out of spec :).
I will feel really stupid running around with a c64 in shops bugging clerks :)
(note to myself: same but better sound LG M2294D-PZ) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
2 months ago i wanted a new mini screen for c64, to take with me on parties. i went on ebay and searched.
i found a noname tv monitor, supposed to be used in a car, so you can have a camera on the back, and see on the screen where you are going (a better rear view mirror).
it was just called "car lcd tv monitor", no comnpany name is printed on it, and its from hong kong.
it only cost 48 uk pounds, so i took the chance and just bought it.
its a regular old TV, it can receive tv old style from the air with an antenna, but the screen is LCD.
it has composite video in, and VGA in.
it dont look so digital and blocky resolution as a philips digital crap dvd player i have, so it really looks a lot like a tv or monitor, but its not blurred, and not blocky.
its actually fucking good!
since hong kong electronics are cheap, you can afford to take the risk, to just buy something, that is perhaps really ok. maybe i was lucky, dunno.
but, not, while not at any party, and i have no need for the screen while at home, i have connected it to my server, which is hidden in a closet, and since it has the vga input, its perfect. nice little mini screen, in case i need to look at the server, when the remote control is out of function :D |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
thanks for the input, but I want to use it to watch demos at home, so I'd like something bigger :) guess I'll have to take a jump in the dark, I think I could live with nuflied iflies anyway :) but I hope for smooth 50fps, and no combing :) |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Quoting Oswald...but I hope for smooth 50fps, and no combing :)
good luck ;-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Well, if people who have a regular/big size LCD used with their C64, why not try some rating ?
Write, full name of screen, and a rating from 1-10
Maybe this could help to find the best ? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I have bought an LG M227WD and so far I am satisfied. I got a PC Monitor, c64 Monitor, TV for a very good price, picture is very nice, sound is perfect for the size of the speakers, etc. I could only so far test the c64 with rf cable, and only with the basic prompt, looks good so far. (cable soldering is in progress & my 1541u is not at me atmo.)
I have seen what a M228WD does, and it deinterlaces the picture, but that doesnt bothers me at all, the rest what it was doing is nice. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
Anything with WD in the name must be good :)
Sorry for being off-topic here. I have never tested cbm equipment connected to anything else than old school 1970s- 1990s television sets and a handful of monitors. What if I would like to test my old C64 in the basement with new equipment. Would I not need any kind of fancy monitor to vga converter?
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Nah, they should all still have SCART (yuck!) or Mini DIN (good) inputs. There's cable shops out there (docshardwarekiste.de) that sell them at very reasonable prices. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
 |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 675 |
Thanks Oswald ;-)
I think things like that are whats really needed in such threads. So for that device, s-video is the way to go. Deadsimple to solder yourself and probably available in online-shops as well.
I had an free LCD-PC-Screen when I upgraded to a larger one.
Downside: only VGA (RGB-in) DVI input.
Plus: much cheaper (well, already had it).
Im using this VGA-converter device:
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000XCRAOE/ref=oss_product
\sim 30 eur and works better than expected. Not all TV-boxes can manage the weird C64 signal well.
Im using s-video in there, too. It is quite useful to add 330 ohm for the Chroma-line (thanks groepaz!) since otherwise yellow and white are darn close (etc...).
http://enthusi.de/c642.png
Scrolling (GianaSisters is a very nice test) shows the expected stuttering but no de-interlace comb-features.
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Stingray
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 117 |
I have an LG 32 inch (model: 32LG50FD - AD). I was using just an RF cable with it but the picture had a kind checker board look to all the pixels, this made eveyones eyes very sore!
Now I have the C64 connected with the S-video cable, very crisp picture and no more sore eyes. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
well, I have tried the lgm227wd on its scart port, & interlace looks like a living nightmare. it deinterlaces pics and the result is horrible. its not like the "deinterlaced" csdb screenshots, its worse almost like seeing only 1 of the frames. non interlace stuff looks nice & clean tho.
While building the cable I have realised I have an 1084 too, I didnt use because I had no cable, now I could try it too. It works perfectly, BUT the picture is somehow grainy, I dont like it really... Seems like for me nothing will beat our old family tv set. Or mayba Im just used too much to Vice...;´) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Anybody tried to connect the C64 to a mini/pocket projector such as Optoma Pico PK102 or similar? Is it even possible to see the screen contents, or what happens? |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
Just installed powerstrip and by luck, my lcd monitor can be selected to use 50.116 refresh rate. Yes its a small bit off but i have confirmed the refresh rate by the OSD which gives the 50.1 hhz notification. Furthermore scrolling is now silky smooth
The monitor is the Proview 900p
This is via emulator however, not a real c64 |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Bump! Any recent developments? I'm looking for a solution with a small screen I can bring on a plane for X, preferably without framejumping, which I guess would mean a TV that could adapt its framerate like old CRT's. But if that's not technologically possible in 2012, I guess I'll have to live with some jerkyness. As long as it's not as bad as on the last X where I thought I could use an analogue TV adapter for MacBook, which turned out to be a horrible disaster with only about 2-3 frames/sec. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Btw, about Frantic's idea of modding a C64 to run at 50 Hz - wouldn't it be easier to mod a screen to run at 50.12 Hz? |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42543&sid=e17a9039..
Same sort of discussion as in here.
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Fierman
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 85 |
http://www.goodluckbuy.com/mini-7-tft-digital-lcd-tv-dvd-monito..
i bought that display a few months ago, works fine with c64. of course, it is a 16:9 display, so the screen will have the wrong aspect ratio. For watching the odd demo its pretty decent though. (and it is cheap too!) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Cresh: Yeah, there are lots of similar discussions, but this one is the most clever one I've found. Haven't seen anyone else dealing with the 50.12 Hz problem.
Fierman: Thanks, might try it out. How is it handling smooth scrolling stuff? |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
The monitor that i am using at the moment allows 50hz via nvidia control panel. Will try powerstrip at some point to see whether or not i can set it to 50.12 or similar.
There may still be issues with emulators syncing to it constantly without no dropout however. There was a build of x64 (x64e) which would sync to refresh with lesser dropouts
My x110p projector can even allow 50hz (nice 3 metre c64 screen :-)
edit: Monitor is LG 2342P 3D passive 23" |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Cruzer: I bought the same set, also on recommendation from Fierman. It handles smooth scrolling surprisingly well! Haven't noticed any visible frameskips/double frames at all. The only downer is that the 16:9 aspect ratio is fixed. If you can live with the stretching it's a great choice; it certainly doesn't get much more portable. Personally I consider it well worth the money; as a coder I'd take stretched pixels over jerky scrolling any day of the week. |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 421 |
I have one of these: http://www.camos-multimedia.com/index.php?content=products&grou..
They sync perfectly to a 50.12Hz signal, have S-Video (and VGA) input, 4:3 aspect ratio, the resolution (800x600) is high enough to show every pixel and they come in 8 or 10 inch size. Definitely not cheap though. |
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Fierman
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 85 |
Quote: I have one of these: http://www.camos-multimedia.com/index.php?content=products&grou..
They sync perfectly to a 50.12Hz signal, have S-Video (and VGA) input, 4:3 aspect ratio, the resolution (800x600) is high enough to show every pixel and they come in 8 or 10 inch size. Definitely not cheap though.
'only' 350 euro..... They have really great products though. Bookmarked. Thanks :)
Cruzer: what radiantx says, scrolling is smooth. A small downside, besides the aspect ratio, though is that sometimes due to the resolution a colourbleeding effect can be noticed. Not sure if this also happens with mrsid's superduper display. |
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Romppainen
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 40 |
Has anyone tried those small TFT screens which were built to be hooked with PSone? |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 421 |
They work, but they're only 320x240 in resolution and only 5" in size. Not really suited well for C64 use... |
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Romppainen
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 40 |
Umm, some sources claim that resolution of official Sony model is 640 x 480...?!? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Ordered the 7'' set recommended by Fierman and radiantx. Update rate is definitely more important than aspect ratio. Will consider Mr.SID's one as well for sure, unless someone suggests something cheaper that is as good. |
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Total Chaos
Registered: Mar 2006
Posts: 74 |
I was about to recommend the 10" Denver TFT I and Macx got, but it looks like the company selling them (in Sweden) are out of stock.
(They have stores all over Sweden so one of the .se's comming to X could have brought one maybe)
http://www.kjell.com/sortiment/ljud-bild/tv-tillbehor/tv-appara..
at SEK 999 it's a AWESOME party-monitor.
Running at 4:3 or 16:9 and LOADS of connections...
 |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Total Chaos: Thanx, I was able to find it here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Denver-LED-1030DVBT-10-1-reader-top-up/..
But first, the obligatory question about how it handles smooth scrolling.
I'm also seriously considering this one: :D
http://www.pricerunner.dk/pi/2-2661464/TV/Hannspree-HANNScamel-..
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
CamelTV how awesome! :)
for videowork i use a 7" lilliput monitor on my dslr. they come in different sizes like 5", 7", 8" and 10".
i got mine from here..
http://www.coollcd.com/10-hd-field-monitors_c896?zenid=f1250e17..
tried it once onw a c64 at weasel's place. would need to setup my c64 to test how it works with scrolling stuff. |
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titan_ae
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 46 |
TC's mini-TFT is also avail on amazon germany for 150 !! EUR
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Total Chaos
Registered: Mar 2006
Posts: 74 |
in reply to smoothscrolling:
I would say yes, it does handle it well. It's NOT 100%, but damn close.
I've only tested the composite-in on it, but it handles scart aswell.
Mind you all, I'm old and slow, so it might jerk like a MF but I'm just not seeing it ;)
At 2.5kg (INCLUDING packaging-box) it's the ultimate party-monitor (imho).
CamelTV: LOOOOOOOOL! Goats are way cooler... ;) |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 500 |
http://baumarktonlineshop.org/odys-lcd-tc-15-base-381-cm-15-zol..
That is what i am using in combination with s-video.
Can be seen in use here:
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 833 |
@BitBreaker: those speakers!! *drool*
I have a question regarding this LCD TV I use for my C64 at home...
It's not the best one around of course... just a crappy brand (Alba) I bought from Argos to replace the ~25 year old CRT I always used, but sadly came to an end of its life. :'(
This LCD TV has both AV and HDMI support. Currently my C64 is hooked up to it via AV cables... but the output quality is really shitty, and you get that "jump" frame problem after around 20 seconds as people have mentioned above. I was thinking of switching to the HDMI method... is that possible and is it better quality output? ... just so I don't have to go out ordering the S-Video/HDMI convertor that I currently don't have, in the case that there is no difference to quality. |
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Grue
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 146 |
It might not be the best, but very portable..
http://dx.com/p/et-430-4-3-tft-lcd-digital-monitor-for-vehicle-..
This is quite small but works ok with c64 including smooth scrolling. It only accepts composite, but with this screensize its not a big problem.
It evolved into integrated display on my c64c
pics at: http://sid.fi/~grue/nepa/
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lft
Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 369 |
Quoting CruzerBtw, about Frantic's idea of modding a C64 to run at 50 Hz - wouldn't it be easier to mod a screen to run at 50.12 Hz?
A problem with either approach is that the computer and the monitor would have different ideas about the correct colour carrier frequency.
How about TFT/LCD modules in embedded systems? Has anybody tried changing the frame rate of the display in, say, a jailbroken tablet? One use case would be to run vice with perfect scrolling and no tearing, but with some kind of USB S-video grabber it might also be feasible to use the tablet as a display for a real C64. |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
regarding the skewing problem, taking inspiration from here:
http://www.raphnet.net/divers/commodore64/index_en.php
see section "Composite video and and LCD TV", I got rid of part of the video signal in the V-synch area using LM1881, and magically the screen stopped in a still position. I still have problems in displaying proper colors, especially red is awful, but at least I get a still screen. I'll try to post the circuit I used after I optimize it a bit. |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
After a lot of experiments I managed to gain an even higher quality without flickering using an interface circuit. But I still have troubles with red color display. I see red as grey. Anyone knows why? |
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soci
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 473 |
These new TVs still suck. Tried 3 lately.
The first couldn't scroll properly without jumps. There was no way no tell it not to automatically adjust the backlight to content. Crap colours, visibility and sound. But at least it didn't try to deinterlace. Anyway, some manufacturer I've never heard of from Europe(?).
Then there was some model of Samsung I think. Impossible to get it to not deinterlace. But scrolling worked. Unfortunately when it detected a black screen it's switched off the back light, so a flashing cursor gave an interesting effect. This could slightly be reduced in movie mode where it dimmed slower. Lot's of not so useful "effects", except maybe for the picture zooming. Picture ok, but on low backlight it was not "uniform" everywhere (darker right low part).
Now here's one from Sharp. Also impossible to get rid of deinterlacing. At least it's not messing with the backlight. This also doesn't like black screens, shifts horizontally a bit when it comes back. Scroll jumps sometimes. Picture ok.
The best is that the last two had noticeable lag even when typing at the BASIC prompt due to some picture processing. Even after I switched most stuff off. Playing games must be challenging on these ;)
It's a bit disappointing. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
conclusion: the best lcd tv for the c64 is a crt |
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soci
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 473 |
Or maybe a projector ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
I just got a Samsung lw20m21cp, and I can tell you this is the best friggin monitor that I ever had.
the CRT feel of subtle noise and swim is there yet its crystal clear, and interlace is very subtle, yet its LCD. oh and perfect 50hz screen, with all analogue inputs there is.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lw20m21cp&sxsrf=AOaemvLuzrokUkt.. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 226 |
Instantly went on Ebay-Kleinanzeigen and got one for 25€.
Works like a charm and the picture looks solid to me.
Could not notice and jags and tears so far. |
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katon
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 25 |
I bought such a Samsung as a reserve a year ago on Polish Allegro and I have to admit that the image is mega perfect with the C64. I paid 45 euros. The company sells these monitors periodically from time to time. They provide a guarantee, the monitors are in perfect technical condition after the review and the replaced capacitors are cleaned like new. Additionally, there is a guarantee seal. If someone is interested, as soon as there are offers for sale, I can send a link on priv. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
Just captured a Samsung lw20m21cp on ebay. Will be interesting to see how well it works! I guess I will get it in a week or two. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Since I haven't found the Samsung mentioned above yet, I'm keeping my eyes open for this Kickstarter project:
https://www.checkmate1500plus.com/IntroductionDisplays.aspx |
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soci
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 473 |
Meanwhile I've found that it's possible to get good results with an LCD monitor which can do 720x576@50 on VGA using an old PC with an asus agp-v264gt3 and a Debian 4.0 with custom driver hacks based on the BT829 manual.
Took only 3 days not counting that I gave up trying to use the card 20 years ago for this purpose due to it's poor quality interlaced output. As always, it was bad drivers and software of course, hardware is fine.
If set up right the card can capture all frames right into a video decoder/scaler overlay. Without de-interlacing of course, full frame-rate with a latency of less than 20ms. Actually the CPU isn't used at all once it's up and running.
I haven't done a software PLL hack yet to get the exact vertical refresh rate (could be done). Instead the frame timing is set so close that it takes minutes that the capture and decoding crosses once. So smooth scrollers and interlaced pictures.
Colours are ok if it's set up right (tunable), cropping can be set up properly (no left white bar). Source resolution is 720x288 which gets scaled up. Hires pixels are nice sharp (using s-video). Slight colouring of checker pattern of course (like on TV). PAL colour mixing works. The card is sensitive to power quality so the supply should be good or else the brightness is not stable.
Unfortunately it's a big box under a monitor which is noisy, boots slowly and uses a lot of power. But it work with a modern monitor after all :)
Btw. it's even nicer with a CRT monitor at 100Hz without any scaling of source (288 raster lines!) but in this setup the lack of PLL is visible quite often.
Anyway, there are better solutions on the market today to do the same thing (and more) with a LCD monitor. |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 247 |
Quote: Since I haven't found the Samsung mentioned above yet, I'm keeping my eyes open for this Kickstarter project:
https://www.checkmate1500plus.com/IntroductionDisplays.aspx
Just an update here, I decided against backing this project, as it's basically just a standard monitor and wouldn't have supported Svideo out of the box.
Considering I have a Framemeister, I can use that anyways to display to most LCDs and projectors that can handle 50 Hz. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1627 |
An update regarding the samsung monitor that I mentioned in a previous post. Except for a dead pixel, it did indeed work very well. |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
Quote:Most people I've talked to, doesn't recommend a LCD TV as a C64 monitor, but my question is: which is the best one? I'm looking forward to a slick C64 setup with 1541U and a very portable monitor. :D
I roll with an oldschool Sony Bravia TV (KDL40V3000 model, made in 2010-ish) with S-Video input solely for C64/A1200 setup, and honestly it feels difficult to find a better upgrade. On top on proper 4:3 ratio and good, sharp video quality (no blur on the edges, noise etc.) it also has built-in filter which smoothes interlaced/FLI modes, but doesn't produce artifacts (even when there's a lot of movement on the screen).
Wasn't really looking for it, it's just an old TV that happened to fit to retro setups. I believe the smallest model was 28", so it should be portable enough. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11113 |
I can recommend the Samsung SyncMaster 214T - not a TV, but a monitor with cvbs, svideo, vga, dvi. It can do PiP, so really nice for coding on PC and watching C64 output if you dont have a lot of space.
It also has a common flaw in its power supply, which is why they are available very cheap. Fix some caps (google will tell you how) and you get an excellent TFT for a few bucks. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: I can recommend the Samsung SyncMaster 214T - not a TV, but a monitor with cvbs, svideo, vga, dvi. It can do PiP, so really nice for coding on PC and watching C64 output if you dont have a lot of space.
It also has a common flaw in its power supply, which is why they are available very cheap. Fix some caps (google will tell you how) and you get an excellent TFT for a few bucks.
Hi Groepaz, which of those I can use to connect C64 video output please? I'm kinda not skilled in this area and I'm quite interested to have monitor for my real C64 that is not a blob. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11113 |
Both cvbs or svideo should work. I have used svideo with C64 and cvbs with Atari800 :)
That said do NOT get this monitor if you are not prepared to fix its PSU - it WILL go wrong even if you find a working one. We had 3 (or 4?) in the company, and all of them had to be recapped at some point. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034 |
Quote: Both cvbs or svideo should work. I have used svideo with C64 and cvbs with Atari800 :)
That said do NOT get this monitor if you are not prepared to fix its PSU - it WILL go wrong even if you find a working one. We had 3 (or 4?) in the company, and all of them had to be recapped at some point.
Thank you. I found couple of refurbished here in SVK for around 70 bucks. I might try one. |
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Silver Dream !
Registered: Nov 2005
Posts: 107 |
For LCDs I can safely recommend the "transitional" SD studio gear like LMD-1410, LMD-1420 or even better but noticeably more expensive LMD-1750W. All are designed to work with analogue signals, have Y/C inputs and adapt perfectly to even non-interlaced, out of specs video like the one coming out of unmodified C64. I have multiple units. Especially the 1410s, which I used to use in my late TV studio times. Can put up some for sale too. And even if nothing beats a good, hi-res studio CRT, when space is at premium then they are the next best thing I use to connect retro machines to |
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cbmeeks
Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 72 |
My precious 1084S is starting to have issues (I've had it since I was around 16). Even with s-video I can see color banding going down the screen.
I was lucky enough to get a Kawari lately and I couldn't be happier. Although it has that "emulator" look, I don't mind that.
It's depressing that good CRT (and LCD) options are going away for C64 users. Especially in the US.
me
http://meeks.co |
