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Forums > C64 Pixeling > Urgently needed: proper Bordergfx-editor!

2008-11-25 08:33

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Urgently needed: proper Bordergfx-editor!

The c64 scene definately needs an editor for proper border gfx! I'm fucking fed up with making my stuff on Potatoshop, counting colors manually while i pixel it and having to rely on the coder to convert it first to see what it it actually looks like on the real machine! And I probably hate doing it in Amica Paint (with totally different color restrictions!) just as much as the coder who later has to convert it to sprites!

From the feedback I got I know that people fucking love my border-GFX, and I myself enjoy it every time I see it done by others (like Duce's Catrabbit from X2008! Respect, pal! 8), and I think pretty much *every* gfxian would welcome the possiblity to extend his compopicture into the border, it's just that hardly anyone has a coder to work with that is willing/able to do this for him, and lacking the proper tool to do this with is pretty much the main problem here!

There's only two editors for border gfx I found (and no, I ain't talking about expanded-sprites-only stuff like ESCOS, I'm talking bitmap gfx, possibly Drazlace!): One allows you to extend some 4-color-gfx into the border (in 4 colors only any only sth like 10 chars high - meh!) and the other one is OSCAR from some OZ dude, done in 1988 (god, that code is SO inefficient with all the jumptables!), which I've added to CSDb.. I've spent some time working in this last December, and I can tell you that if you think our gfx-editors are unusable, you fucking ain't seen OSCAR yet! <:-) The unusability knows no bounds in this one, it's basically a new definition of the term!...

Here's what I'm thinking: Two separate editors, one for sideborder and one for upper/lower border, since the demands are rather different.

1) Sideboder editor feature list:
-should allow for loading standard bitmap gfx (also laced) in hires or multicolor (Koala, (Adv.) Art Studio, plain bitmap, Zoomatic, Drazlace, P1's Drazlace advanced for 2 screenRAMs)
-4 sprites
-Should allow setting the x-position and expansion of the sprites arbitrarily, but fixed for the whole screen. Pre-set layouts for the technically less inclined:
-2left/2right: 2 Mcol sprites side by side, 6 chars full width per border
-2left/2right: 2 Hires sprites side by side, 6 chars full width per border
-2left/2right: 1 Mcol sprite+1 expanded Hires sprite overlaid for 3 outer chars 1 color and 3 inner chars 4 colors (+$d021), 6 chars full width per border
-2left/2right: 1 Mcol sprite+1 Hires sprite overlaid, 3 chars per border
-2left/2right: 2 Hires sprites overlaid, 3 chars per border

This should cover most needs. The people requiring more sprites on one side than on the other should adjust it manually.

-Color-switching: I know that quite often coders don't want the maximum amount of color switching because they need the cycles for other stuff, but making the editor as flexible to set the number of swtichable registers per line would be way more work than it already is, so just go for something sensible, switching all colors every line (except for the badline) is doable, but probably a bit much, since the picture itself is just standard bitmap, so something like new colors every 4 lines should suffice for almost everything. And yes, I know that it has to be 1 line off from the badlines in order to have new colors every charline, that's okay! ;-)
-Would be totally awesome if the editor could read out the left/rightmost bitmap column colors upon importing the bitmap and already set those for the sprites!
-Zoom mode must also at least display one char-column of the bitmap, otherwise making it seamless would be quite taxing.
-$d021 is fixed (since there's no editor that allows for changing $d021 rasterwise anyway!)
-must support saving executables, packed would be best!

2) Upper/lower border editor feature list:
-Should allow for loading (I)FLI as well as files written by the sideborder editor. Dare I ask for (M)U(I)FLI support? ;-)
-Needs extra flexibility in X-Positioning and sprite Expansion as compared to the sideborder editor. The user should be able to change expansion/x-position thoughout the whole border area instead of the colors.
-For the technically less inclined it would be best to set x-position for every sprite and expansion globally (but different for the upper and the lower border). Those that need more can just twiddle with the respective registers! ;-)
-Would be totally awesome if the editor could read out the top/bottom bitmap charline colors upon importing the bitmap, interpolate them and already set them for the sprites!
-$d021 needs to be switchable along with X-expansion, spritecolors and positioning! This is very important!
-must support saving executables, packed would be best!

And NO, we DON'T NEED yet another fucking Windows-only PC pixeltool to achieve this, this can and should very much be done on c64 itself! >:-)

I know this is a lot of work, but rest assured I and pretty much every other gfxian out there would REALLY appreciate this! ;-) I've talked to various coders about this and it seemed to me they didn't really see the need for this, but there really is NOTHING apart from the 2 lame/unusable tools mentioned above. So if you're a gfxian, let them know how much you'd like something like this by hitting that "reply" button below! ;-D
If you tweak the X-Position and expansion a lot, I guess people wouldn't mind too much if zoom view wasn't fully accurate. I'd just appreciate being able to do it at all, and it'd still be less wrapping-my-head-around-it than doing it in Photoshop or Amicapaint, believe me! ;-D

I'd be more than happy to assist in development and beta testing if you decide to do this!

... 111 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2008-11-29 10:03

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

Quoting Angel of Death

Deekay is not asking you to make the best editor known to man, ever.
Just make a damn effort!

As said in an earlier discussion, theres not a lot of coders searching forums for random coding projects to spend their limited spare time on.

Quoting JackAsser

To fuel the flame: Write your shit in Java like I do

Indeed. The time spent discussing here would be better spent reading "teach yourself *random language/rad tool* in x days"

2008-11-29 13:22

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

Quoting sad panda is sad

For example, on the painter tool that I'm working on right now, the PC is used for input and editing, but the output image is always displayed (during editing) on a real hardware c64 connected via rrnet.

When I have needed an editor for a custom format I have stuck to just quickly throwing together a pc tool that can load and save the image, and just barely set the pixels. But if I cared enough I would do something like that aswell.
Just code (or rip) a displayer of the image format and combine with one of the existing network protocols implemented on c64, and let the program on pc feed the changes of the image data live to the c64.

2009-04-30 08:34

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Aided by copious amounts of alcohol I was actually able to persuade Doc Bacardi to code such an editor on Breakpoint 09! ;-) The alcohol and me showing him what I had done in OSCAR so far and how horribly awful it is to use did the trick I guess, hehe!... The agreement is that he makes a crossplattform editor in Java. Not as good as a native one, but still great! 8)

So there's no escape now, go for it, Baccy! 8)

P.S: It was quite hilarious, Ninja the next morning to Baccy: "...You promised him WHAT???" ;-D

2009-04-30 13:43

Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 407

Did he give you a deadline? It took me ~1.5 years of nagging to get him fix the bugs I found in DreamAss (for less than 100 lines changed) ;)

2009-04-30 15:00

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148

my bet is that i will have my editor for International Karaoke finished long before baccy even started with this =D

2009-04-30 15:15

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Well, i did find his phonenumber somewhere, so I will call him up frequently until he either gets a restraining order or makes the editor! ;-D

2009-04-30 19:02

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Wrong guy - anyone got his phone# or where he lives? 8)

2009-05-01 09:31

bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2495

I do, but I won´t tell you - first he has to finish half a dozen other projects... ;-)
Btw: I have never tried the prog; do you think it would be an option to improve OSCAR instead of starting an all new editor? Like an OSCAR Gold?

2009-05-01 15:24

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Bastard! ;-)

No, I don't think improving OSCAR would be an option. For starters, the SB-code is highly infefficient and outdated, he uses jumptables inside jumptables, wasting too many cycles. Also, the whole approach is unsuited for making an actually usable program out of it...

2009-05-22 23:15

FATFrost
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211

errr, don't you got Xbow?? he is supremo coderrr!! but seriously, i would fukkin like this editor too, maybe if i donate some cash it will get done.... hmmmm... now only to find some cash......

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