[CSDb] - User Forums - Urgently needed: proper Bordergfx-editor!

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Forums > C64 Pixeling > Urgently needed: proper Bordergfx-editor!

2008-11-25 08:33

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Urgently needed: proper Bordergfx-editor!

The c64 scene definately needs an editor for proper border gfx! I'm fucking fed up with making my stuff on Potatoshop, counting colors manually while i pixel it and having to rely on the coder to convert it first to see what it it actually looks like on the real machine! And I probably hate doing it in Amica Paint (with totally different color restrictions!) just as much as the coder who later has to convert it to sprites!

From the feedback I got I know that people fucking love my border-GFX, and I myself enjoy it every time I see it done by others (like Duce's Catrabbit from X2008! Respect, pal! 8), and I think pretty much *every* gfxian would welcome the possiblity to extend his compopicture into the border, it's just that hardly anyone has a coder to work with that is willing/able to do this for him, and lacking the proper tool to do this with is pretty much the main problem here!

There's only two editors for border gfx I found (and no, I ain't talking about expanded-sprites-only stuff like ESCOS, I'm talking bitmap gfx, possibly Drazlace!): One allows you to extend some 4-color-gfx into the border (in 4 colors only any only sth like 10 chars high - meh!) and the other one is OSCAR from some OZ dude, done in 1988 (god, that code is SO inefficient with all the jumptables!), which I've added to CSDb.. I've spent some time working in this last December, and I can tell you that if you think our gfx-editors are unusable, you fucking ain't seen OSCAR yet! <:-) The unusability knows no bounds in this one, it's basically a new definition of the term!...

Here's what I'm thinking: Two separate editors, one for sideborder and one for upper/lower border, since the demands are rather different.

1) Sideboder editor feature list:
-should allow for loading standard bitmap gfx (also laced) in hires or multicolor (Koala, (Adv.) Art Studio, plain bitmap, Zoomatic, Drazlace, P1's Drazlace advanced for 2 screenRAMs)
-4 sprites
-Should allow setting the x-position and expansion of the sprites arbitrarily, but fixed for the whole screen. Pre-set layouts for the technically less inclined:
-2left/2right: 2 Mcol sprites side by side, 6 chars full width per border
-2left/2right: 2 Hires sprites side by side, 6 chars full width per border
-2left/2right: 1 Mcol sprite+1 expanded Hires sprite overlaid for 3 outer chars 1 color and 3 inner chars 4 colors (+$d021), 6 chars full width per border
-2left/2right: 1 Mcol sprite+1 Hires sprite overlaid, 3 chars per border
-2left/2right: 2 Hires sprites overlaid, 3 chars per border

This should cover most needs. The people requiring more sprites on one side than on the other should adjust it manually.

-Color-switching: I know that quite often coders don't want the maximum amount of color switching because they need the cycles for other stuff, but making the editor as flexible to set the number of swtichable registers per line would be way more work than it already is, so just go for something sensible, switching all colors every line (except for the badline) is doable, but probably a bit much, since the picture itself is just standard bitmap, so something like new colors every 4 lines should suffice for almost everything. And yes, I know that it has to be 1 line off from the badlines in order to have new colors every charline, that's okay! ;-)
-Would be totally awesome if the editor could read out the left/rightmost bitmap column colors upon importing the bitmap and already set those for the sprites!
-Zoom mode must also at least display one char-column of the bitmap, otherwise making it seamless would be quite taxing.
-$d021 is fixed (since there's no editor that allows for changing $d021 rasterwise anyway!)
-must support saving executables, packed would be best!

2) Upper/lower border editor feature list:
-Should allow for loading (I)FLI as well as files written by the sideborder editor. Dare I ask for (M)U(I)FLI support? ;-)
-Needs extra flexibility in X-Positioning and sprite Expansion as compared to the sideborder editor. The user should be able to change expansion/x-position thoughout the whole border area instead of the colors.
-For the technically less inclined it would be best to set x-position for every sprite and expansion globally (but different for the upper and the lower border). Those that need more can just twiddle with the respective registers! ;-)
-Would be totally awesome if the editor could read out the top/bottom bitmap charline colors upon importing the bitmap, interpolate them and already set them for the sprites!
-$d021 needs to be switchable along with X-expansion, spritecolors and positioning! This is very important!
-must support saving executables, packed would be best!

And NO, we DON'T NEED yet another fucking Windows-only PC pixeltool to achieve this, this can and should very much be done on c64 itself! >:-)

I know this is a lot of work, but rest assured I and pretty much every other gfxian out there would REALLY appreciate this! ;-) I've talked to various coders about this and it seemed to me they didn't really see the need for this, but there really is NOTHING apart from the 2 lame/unusable tools mentioned above. So if you're a gfxian, let them know how much you'd like something like this by hitting that "reply" button below! ;-D
If you tweak the X-Position and expansion a lot, I guess people wouldn't mind too much if zoom view wasn't fully accurate. I'd just appreciate being able to do it at all, and it'd still be less wrapping-my-head-around-it than doing it in Photoshop or Amicapaint, believe me! ;-D

I'd be more than happy to assist in development and beta testing if you decide to do this!

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2008-11-26 18:56

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702

Quote: Oh my, listen to the coders talking... <:-) Do you also tell composers that reSID sounds exactly like the real thing? (just in case you actually believe that, go check the examples on kevtris page!)

Well Video and audio emulation are not related in this case as we are talking about how an image would look like on a real c64 in comparison to en emulator.

ReSID is certainly not accurate in comparison to the real thing (although the emulation in Hoxs64 is more accurate)

But pal emulation is near or enough extremely accurate. Yes, it does not have the interference/noise but as someone previously mentioned before, different tv's output give slightly varied results. As long as the internal pal emulation is there, this is how a stock c64 should display the image

2008-11-26 19:25

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933

Didn't know OSCAR till yesterday. 20 Years too late, goddamn!

Anyhow, border graphics should remain special, not become a triviality. As long as there's no proper editor, border graphics are teh shit. ;)

2008-11-26 22:07

Copyfault

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 467

It is rather interesting to see that up to now really no one seems to second DK's wish; even the GFXers do not raise their voices 'pro such a border-editor'. Odd...

If I had more time _and_ if I would only be able to finish at least one editor (how old is this ILM thing now? >10 yrs!) I'd gratefully offer my help. There's still some 2 or 3 ideas for new gfx-modes in my head but I doubt I will ever get the appropriate editors done. This prolly renders me out of business. Sad.

Personally I think that there's no real alternative to working on _da real thang_ when it comes to designing aspects (gfx'n'sound, that is...) - there's simply no possibility to get closer to the original.
For a pixel tool, the only exception could be a PC-based editor with permanent data-xfer to the C64 that makes it possible to watch the pic on the wanted platform. But DK seems to go into this direction already. Sounds promising!

Is DK really the last scener that prefers tools on C64? He should get an award for this attitude!

2008-11-26 22:19

Mace

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799

Awards?

We could introduce the Grahammies for coding and the AcaDeeKaymy for graphicians...

2008-11-26 23:17

Alias Medron

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 39

Gimme a sideborder GFX editor and i'll use it! (that's what most gfxers think).. and NO we aren't going to learn coding as long coders don't start painting :D

2008-11-26 23:35

Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 407

You don't want that, really. Otherwise you'll get releases like FLI-Comic ;)

2008-11-27 04:28

A Life in Hell
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204

Quote: That may be - just like filtercurves on SIDs vary. But is that a reason not to emulate the filter? 8)

And quite frankly I don't give a fuck what the cause is for that effect, just like composers don't care if it's the SID or some capacitors causing some effect.. IT'S FUCKING WRONG and far from 100% accurate, that's all that matters to me!

I agree with deekay, but this doens't stop from cross developing - you just have to look at it in a different way. For example, on the painter tool that I'm working on right now, the PC is used for input and editing, but the output image is always displayed (during editing) on a real hardware c64 connected via rrnet.

i don't know if rrnet's are common enough that this is useful for people other than me, tho.

(I'm tempted to have a crack at coding this on native c64, tho, because i think it would becool, but i guess i can't until christmast time)

2008-11-27 07:53

Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639

If just anyone could do border graphics it'd kinda reduce the awesomeness factor of it, wouldn't it? Personally I see nothing wrong with pestering one of your group's coders until he codes a customizable viewer... Or even an internal painting tool. :-)

Just keep in mind that even though sharing is nice we still are supposed to compete with each other somehow, not just collaborate randomly across groups.

2008-11-27 08:02

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028

whats so awesome in border gfx? we have editors for it since 20 years. we've are looking at them since 20 years. :P

2008-11-27 08:06

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1629

I'm all with Deekay.. ;)