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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
a plea from an old schooler
please dont use modified PAL emulating screenshots for pictures on this site.
people may want to use this site to download unmodified c64 art in gif or png format with pure pixel definition.
if they want to see the stuff in highly debatable pal emulation mode people can download the PRG files and view them in that mode on an emulator.
Thanks
Steve |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: http://pepto.de/projects/colorvic/
read it how he did it. Its a nice nerd read :-)
I think this is skewing towards palettes only again where the real problem is a mix of palette and pal emulation producing a fixed high (compared to 16 colours) colour image that it's really hard to do anything with if it's not what you expected/remember.
Pepto's certainly gone about it the right way and for a palette alone it is one of the better ones. I think what Ste was getting at with sliders etc is once you add PAL emulation on to that you've got a whole world of possibilities and it's all down to personal preference again so even if Pepto is 100% correct, it's easily screwed once it's put into an emulator.
Pete
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: I think pepto is perfect. Anyway its personal preferences tastes, and what TV set you had with what settings. Probaby you had a setup which was closer to Wanja's. I bet you could take pepto's display it on a certain crt with certain settings and it will look as you like it :)
btw, have you read my reply over at format war?
Yeah, hurry up and recover! He's started asking me for a paint app now :P |
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v3to
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150 |
imo there is no perfect c64 palette for pc, each one is a compromise. try various pix on a real c64 and compare them with the pc using pepto. there are always different impressions of the colors itself.
that is mostly caused by domination effects between pixels. well known for white, yellow, light-green, blue or brown. if you experiment with dark red and dark blue or violet and orange it seems that you can increase saturation on the real thing. all of this is missing on a tft and even current vice or timanthes pal emulation does no proper show (though groepaz new pe is damn promising). guess why many graphicians check their stuff on a real thing...
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029 |
Quote: I think this is skewing towards palettes only again where the real problem is a mix of palette and pal emulation producing a fixed high (compared to 16 colours) colour image that it's really hard to do anything with if it's not what you expected/remember.
Pepto's certainly gone about it the right way and for a palette alone it is one of the better ones. I think what Ste was getting at with sliders etc is once you add PAL emulation on to that you've got a whole world of possibilities and it's all down to personal preference again so even if Pepto is 100% correct, it's easily screwed once it's put into an emulator.
Pete
Still Vice's PAL emulation is a whole lot closer to old CRT displays, than pixels defined 100% crystal clearly without any blur effect. You're pretty wrong: a real display has more than 16 colors. I've seen displays where a line of +++++++'s looked like <><><<><> with certain fore/background colors, on clear displays you can see the char columns even if the screen is empty, there are a lot of effects and pal emulation only does a few of them.
Pepto has measured the YUV signal of various c64's with various oscilloscopes, and converted these values into RGB. How this may be wrong is over me. The emulator settings are there so the likes of you complaining about dull/dark colors can tune up saturation/brightness just like on any TV set you can do it. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
Quote: Still Vice's PAL emulation is a whole lot closer to old CRT displays, than pixels defined 100% crystal clearly without any blur effect. You're pretty wrong: a real display has more than 16 colors. I've seen displays where a line of +++++++'s looked like <><><<><> with certain fore/background colors, on clear displays you can see the char columns even if the screen is empty, there are a lot of effects and pal emulation only does a few of them.
Pepto has measured the YUV signal of various c64's with various oscilloscopes, and converted these values into RGB. How this may be wrong is over me. The emulator settings are there so the likes of you complaining about dull/dark colors can tune up saturation/brightness just like on any TV set you can do it.
Though some of those effects are like STE mentions, chroma noise, or rather the luminance signal crossing into the chroma carrier.
That's not properly emulated in any emulators AFAIK.
Anyway I agree with JCB to try to keep this thread on the screenshot policy issue.
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
I haven't read this whole thread, so this might have been said, but...
How about this. If you don't like how the PREVIEW IMAGE ('cause that's what it is to me) here on the site looks, why don't you just grab the .prg and, you know, open it in VICE and DISABLE the PAL emulation. Tah-dah! \:D/
Seriously, is it really that hard? even after scanning this thread quickly I haven't seen anyone suggest this. If I did overlook something like it, I appologize. ;_)
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Oswald, please READ the thread, as tlr said this is about the screenshot policy, you keep sidetracking it to wanting to talk about pal emulation and how TVs work, I think after reading some arguments on AA you'd know I understand all that stuff a lot better than some people who claim to be "experts".
This thread is about the fact that if you ONLY make pal filtered screenshots avaialable you're forcing an incomplete/incorrect image onto people as being THE correct one. All Ste and I wanted to see was that at least an untouched image was available as well.
Also, read my posts again, I've not said Pepto is "wrong". Starting to get a bit bored with having to repeat myself now ;) I've only said that once ANY palette including Pepto is combined with an incomplete pal emulation the resulting pixels are likely wrong to some degree NO MATTER how correct the palette is.
Pete |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Newsflash: the untouched image IS availble, unless you're too retarded and incompetent to download the attached .PRG/.D64 or whatever other format.
Is that really so hard to understand, even after it's been mentioned over 8000 time in this thread?
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11148 |
Quote:This thread is about the fact that if you ONLY make pal filtered screenshots avaialable you're forcing an incomplete/incorrect image onto people as being THE correct one. All Ste and I wanted to see was that at least an untouched image was available as well.
a) the unfiltered screenshot is in no way more correct than the filtered one. at this point i can only encourage everyone again to make real screenshots from the real thing and challange anyone else to argue why these would be worse than an incorrect - filtered or not - one from an emulator.
b) i think you very much overestimate the importance of these screenshots. the purpose of the damned screenshot is to be able to quickly check wtf some program looks like. the purpose of the screenshot is NOT to serve as a repository for graphics people. those "people that want to download unmodified c64 art" mentioned in the first post can always do that, regardless if a screenshot even exists. the unmodified c64 art is in the prg file, period. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
@Knoeki
Of course we understand there are d64/prg files to download, you're also missing the point. I'll try to make it clearer below.. Also. If you'd like to infer that I'm retarded please come visit me to do so. I take offence to such talk on forums ;)
@Groepaz
I think you're still not understanding what me and Ste are getting at. I'll try to explain again.
PAL emulation is of course closest to what a real machine attached to a TV will produce BUT to upload EVERY image to this site with PAL emulation which is (I'm sure most people will agree) an incomplete emulation atm, means a) you're saying that doesn't matter it's right "for now" b) when a better one is written all the current "right" ones have to be fetched again from a prg/d64 and capped again with the new "better" pal emulation else they're all suddenly "wrong".
As it's already been agreed that there can be 2 images I don't see the problem and the need to continually argue about something and to just let people look at the ones they want, use the untouched one for re-conversion if ever needed and if an uploader thinks no pal emulation is the way to go on THEIR images, let them flag that.
That is what I mean when I say an unfiltered image is more correct than a filtered one. Yes, it's no more correct than the also available prg/d64 but it's not "broken" in any way and it's a damn site easier to do something with then trying to reverse engineer a PAL emulated image even if someone decided that one had the wrong palette..
One last thought, I'm not sure if you've actually tried capping with most of the hardware that people would have at home but surely most of the pretty crappy capture cards/devices may look more PAL'y but they'll be even further from what an emulator would produce. If you've seen/own a capture device capable of doing a decent job please let me know which as I've been looking for one for some other purposes ;)
Pete |
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